Rebreathers, Partially closed or fully closed?

[padiscubapro]

I'm wondering one thing. Did he have problems with the Prism unit? What shape was it in when you all got it back?

There are two sides to the story.. I know the current owner of the unit has had good sucess with it (from messages with shas), I also know it needed alot of work to be brought back to factory specs.. Before jumping to any conclusions its best to talk to Shas and get their side of the story, and of course hear the other side directly as well...

I do know John had alot of problems with the unit (The boats used to run pools on how short his dive was going to be (some of the boats were very leary of RBS because of this, thankfully this has changed).. My guess is that alot of the problems were because pre and post dive care..

John is not the most gentle of divers (hes a true NE wreck diver) or very gentle with adjustments. This rig was definately not suited for HIM.. John needed a rig where everything could be done without tools, and built to be used and abused..

He eventually purchased an Inspiration and did alot of trouble free dives on it (we dove together on several occasions), he eventually sold the inspiration (more than once) as well.. The inspiration ended up in the hands of Patrick Duffy (I acted as a go between) and it was still in like new condition when I shipped it..

 

[Mverick]

There are two sides to the story.. I know the current owner of the unit has had good sucess with it (from messages with shas), I also know it needed alot of work to be brought back to factory specs.. Before jumping to any conclusions its best to talk to Shas and get their side of the story, and of course hear the other side directly as well...

I do know John had alot of problems with the unit (The boats used to run pools on how short his dive was going to be (some of the boats were very leary of RBS because of this, thankfully this has changed).. My guess is that alot of the problems were because pre and post dive care..

John is not the most gentle of divers (hes a true NE wreck diver) or very gentle with adjustments. This rig was definately not suited for HIM.. John needed a rig where everything could be done without tools, and built to be used and abused..

He eventually purchased an Inspiration and did alot of trouble free dives on it (we dove together on several occasions), he eventually sold the inspiration (more than once) as well.. The inspiration ended up in the hands of Patrick Duffy (I acted as a go between) and it was still in like new condition when I shipped it..

Thanks, Glad you knew a little about the unit.

I had asked the question of SHAS on the board. So others could see what the problems were from both sides.

And, I want a rig that can be used and abused. Although, after busting my HID bulb by a wave pushing it off the seat of a dive boat and onto the floor after a dive. I'm more carefull. But I do like gear that can take a beating. And still perform. I don't want delicate. And I'm not talking about the standard O-ring prep. I'm worried about wheather the plastic would hold up if you dropped it. Or banged it around. Or if the handsets could be dropped to the floor withouth ruining the internals.

I've dropped both my IDA71 and IDA72. And it was still fine. All fittings are brass and metal. So stripping threads isn't much of an issue. And breaking them off is near impossible. Unless you're a complete idiot. Which sometimes I can be. Just not on my rebreather. But sometimes things get dropped. I would like to make sure it won't damage the unit. I'm not big into plastic.

The more I think about it. The more the Meg seems the unit for me. But, I still prefer back mounted CL's. So, I can strap a small bailout breather on my chest. That's Bullet Proof. Know of anybody making backmount CL's for the MEG?

I was going to buy a Prism. Around 9 months ago. Asked alot of questions. But had wanted to wait for the deco computer. So I'd get it on the unit. It's still not in production yet. So, glad I didn't order it. Because without the Primary showing more info. I don't want it. Just me. Some people are fine with that. I don't care about the DECO. I just wanted the 3 cells all showing the same time. Also, I keep swinging back to the point that the PO2 can't be changed underwater. I don't mind it switching back to .7 close to the surface. But at depth. I'd like to be able to switch from 1.2 to 1.4. Doesn't seem to dangerous to me. And I want the unit to track it. So I don't have to. Or I'll just stay with the IDA's. One of them is Kiss Manual. But it didn't cost $8000. LOL

I understand problems with manufacturing. But, that's why people keep stock BEFORE you sell. Have 4 RB's sitting on the shelf. In case you have a problem with one you sent out new. Send a new unit to replace it. And get the old one back. Then sell it as Refurbished. Pretty simple. As long as there is a warranty period.

I'd like to hear both sides of there story on here. Even if he tried to Rip people off when he sold them. If he had problems with the unit. That's what I want to hear. And how the factory fixed it. Saying he tried to rip people off. Isn't what I want to hear from the manufacturer if there were problems with the unit.

So, what I gather from you statement about him going to an Inspiration is that it is more bullet proof then a Prism. That really suprised me.

Thanks for the info...

 

[padiscubapro]

Thanks, Glad you knew a little about the unit.

I had asked the question of SHAS on the board. So others could see what the problems were from both sides.

And, I want a rig that can be used and abused. Although, after busting my HID bulb by a wave pushing it off the seat of a dive boat and onto the floor after a dive. I'm more carefull. But I do like gear that can take a beating. And still perform. I don't want delicate. And I'm not talking about the standard O-ring prep. I'm worried about wheather the plastic would hold up if you dropped it. Or banged it around. Or if the handsets could be dropped to the floor withouth ruining the internals.

I've dropped both my IDA71 and IDA72. And it was still fine. All fittings are brass and metal. So stripping threads isn't much of an issue. And breaking them off is near impossible. Unless you're a complete idiot. Which sometimes I can be. Just not on my rebreather. But sometimes things get dropped. I would like to make sure it won't damage the unit. I'm not big into plastic.

The more I think about it. The more the Meg seems the unit for me. But, I still prefer back mounted CL's. So, I can strap a small bailout breather on my chest. That's Bullet Proof. Know of anybody making backmount CL's for the MEG?

I was going to buy a Prism. Around 9 months ago. Asked alot of questions. But had wanted to wait for the deco computer. So I'd get it on the unit. It's still not in production yet. So, glad I didn't order it. Because without the Primary showing more info. I don't want it. Just me. Some people are fine with that. I don't care about the DECO. I just wanted the 3 cells all showing the same time. Also, I keep swinging back to the point that the PO2 can't be changed underwater. I don't mind it switching back to .7 close to the surface. But at depth. I'd like to be able to switch from 1.2 to 1.4. Doesn't seem to dangerous to me. And I want the unit to track it. So I don't have to. Or I'll just stay with the IDA's. One of them is Kiss Manual. But it didn't cost $8000. LOL

I understand problems with manufacturing. But, that's why people keep stock BEFORE you sell. Have 4 RB's sitting on the shelf. In case you have a problem with one you sent out new. Send a new unit to replace it. And get the old one back. Then sell it as Refurbished. Pretty simple. As long as there is a warranty period.

I'd like to hear both sides of there story on here. Even if he tried to Rip people off when he sold them. If he had problems with the unit. That's what I want to hear. And how the factory fixed it. Saying he tried to rip people off. Isn't what I want to hear from the manufacturer if there were problems with the unit.

So, what I gather from you statement about him going to an Inspiration is that it is more bullet proof then a Prism. That really suprised me.

Thanks for the info...

The big thing john kept screwing up was the pots necessary to adjust the po2.. on the inspiration this is done in software... Trying to recalibrate your po2 on a rocking boat is not an easy task when you have to do small adjustments, and add lack of finese, you get the picture..

He had all sorts of assorted issues but if you saw the condition of the unit it definately was not cared for.. The inspiration is solid in different ways.. the only real thing you can damage (by being careless) on the inspiration is the handsets from dropping them.. but if you always clip them off to the harness (when not in use) its a non issue..

The key to the above difference is that any "adjustments" are done with software tools are kept out of the equation.. I would suspect any RB that needed ajustment like the above would have suffered a similiar fate..
I definately don't want to get into a this is better than that.. I don't want to come across as anti-prism (I have my own reasons for not buying a prism, but it has to do with MY dive philosophy, not any defect in the unit). If I though the inspiration was perfect I wouldn't have put together a rig from an assortmen of sources..

I also agree with your assessment his actions have nothing to do with the rebreather itself.. Problems are problems and should be pointed out.. As far as I can tell most PRISM owner are quite happy with their rigs so you at least have to take that into account..

 

[caveseeker7]

I met the owner of the PRISM sold by John last summer, as well as his current dive partner, and had e-mail contact with his former research partner. The rig was originally described as a basket case that was pretty much trashed. The trim pot for example, as Joe mantioned, needed to be replaced.

The current owner completely disassembled the unit, repaired and adjusted it as needed, and after a couple of test dives had it dialed in. Since then he had a few minor problems due either to his initial inexperience or the previous abuse.

His research partner's rig never had any of the problems, and they never missed a single dive. And their diving involved 4-6 hours on small boats and 3-4 hours of diving a day when in the field. They were doing research in the Sea of Cortez.

This particular PRISM is the one featured in Ron Micjan's teardown , by the way.
The guy in the picture is the owner's current dive partner, whom I also know personally. They are tagging Hammerheads in the SoC and track them. He also dives a PRISM, even though he's an Inspiration instructor. They are currently on a NG sponsored trip tagging the sharks, their project's website is Adopt-A-Shark .

As John's former rig (as well as the others) has been working well enough that no dives were missed it seems the abuse and lack of maintainance was the culprint. To blame that on the rebreather is a cheap shot. You can break, damage or render useless almost anything mechanical if you abuse it or don't maintain it. The same is true for any rebreather.

 

[padiscubapro]

This particular PRISM is the one featured in Ron Micjan's teardown , by the way.
The guy in the picture is the owner's current dive partner, whom I also know personally. They are tagging Hammerheads in the SoC and track them. He also dives a PRISM, even though he's an Inspiration instructor. They are currently on a NG sponsored trip tagging the sharks, their project's website is Adopt-A-Shark .
.

For the task above (original - don't know about requirements on current project) the Inspiration is not allowed because t didn't undergo the complete battery of tests from the US navy.. Other certifications mean nothing.. It would be the same for a research project governed by CE regs, on a CE certified units (I believe there are 3 now) could be used, outside testing is meaningless.

The only other RBS that could ave been used were the MK 15 and I believe the CIS. There were also on very strict limits.. I believe the max depth was something like 40m and just a few minutes of deco... Probably could have used an SCR if they really wanted...

 

[caveseeker7]

For the task above ... The only other RBS that could ave been used were the MK 15 and I believe the CIS. There were also on very strict limits.. I believe the max depth was something like 40m and just a few minutes of deco... Probably could have used an SCR if they really wanted...

That could well be the case for the two researchers from UCD as the UC is government operated to their options are restricted. One of the guys in the photos uses a MK15.5, don't know how the Cis was tested.

But the current dive partner has no connection to UC Davis as you know, isn't even a US citizen and the whole project is in Mexico. I rather doubt that UCD has any leverage on him.

As for the depth limit, have a look at the video still of the PRISM diver with the Gavin scooter at 200 fsw.

 

[padiscubapro]

That could well be the case for the two researchers from UCD as the UC is government operated to their options are restricted. One of the guys in the photos uses a MK15.5, don't know how the Cis was tested.

But the current dive partner has no connection to UC Davis as you know, isn't even a US citizen and the whole project is in Mexico. I rather doubt that UCD has any leverage on him.

As for the depth limit, have a look at the video still of the PRISM diver with the Gavin scooter at 200 fsw.

I remember discussing the project with one of the divers and they were supposed to be under very strict limits of depth and deco limits(that why I made the comment about an SCR), If they dove outside of this thats their perogative... (the 200fsw was it during an official "research" dive or was it a pleaure dive)..

I don't know what official testing was done on the CIS but it DID have an approval for scientific divers (but not sure if it was acceptable on that project)..

Even when outside citizens are involved in projects the people funding/leading the project get to usually set all the rules... Sometimes you get a conflicting set of a projects rules and governmental rules.. Thats when it gets interesting..

 

[caveseeker7]

... SCR ...

Why would you want to use an SCR over a CCR to tag Hammerheads again?

Even when outside citizens are involved in projects the people funding/leading the project get to usually set all the rules...

The current trip is sponsored by National Geographic, I doubt they insisted on PRISM CCRs.
In his e-mail last week he said that's what he'll be diving.

Anyway, useless to debate this, the main point here was John trashing his rig and the new owner never missing a dive with it.

 

[padiscubapro]

Anyway, useless to debate this, the main point here was John trashing his rig and the new owner never missing a dive with it.

I agree... is it true he NEVER missed a dive.. or is that a bit of exaggeration....

not a single bad sensor?? no regulator issues or very minor leaks?? I can't believe the person never even had bubbling from the LP inflator hose(I have skipped dives because of this myself (I wouldnn't skip it on OC but for CC I demand 100% integrity), until I got a replacement hose)
Will the person dive with a minor problem that some of us wouldn't dive with ??

I know I wount dive with any unit unless its 100% perfect.. I have aborted/skipped dives for the smallest leaks imaginable just because it wasn't perfect.. but then again I am anal about my gear..

 

[caveseeker7]

... is it true he NEVER missed a dive.. or is that a bit of exaggeration....

It's what he wrote me.

I can't believe the person never even had bubbling from the LP inflator hose

Of course not, you dive a different rig. :1poke:

I know I wount dive with any unit unless its 100% perfect..

What do you do with your rig then? :lol:
And why did you end up with so many upgrades you almost have two now? :linkz:

Just kidding, Joe, I know you mean passing pre-dive 100%.
Check your mail in a few.