Question Rebreather Full Cave Diver crossover

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

I'm not going to get into it here. Theres another thread with more context.

I would say that you are probably the outlier though. Zero to hero and starting in ccr is definitely not the norm or what most instructors are recommending. But I would say it's definitely doable, but when you look at the "masses" no OC cave training and zero to hero cave (regardless of oc or ccr) is not ideal for most.
I'm no ccr or cave expert, but my opinion is based on discussions with instructors and students as well as personal experience. When I started my cave training if I had started with CCR only I don't know that my skill set would be as good and honestly looking back I think it would have been a negative long term. Eventhough I had years of training and diving, I don't think I was good enough to do exceptionally well in class if I was ccr and likely would not have had the same confidence after my first cave class. Lack of confidence and comfort in the caves I believe is a huge contributor for why most people aren't cave diving after 3 years (other than cost and time to dive). I think my skills going into my initial cave class were pretty good when compared to the average person I see at peacock taking their first cave course, leading me to the belief that "most" new cave divers are better off learning OC first.

This. Cave diving is a major time and skill commitment. CCR diving is equally a major time, skill and dive kit commitment. OC is just ... easier. If it breathes and doesn't bubble too much, it works. Which lets you focus on learning actual cave diving and getting comfortable with hard overhead. You can get really far into a cave with a stage and steels for back gas, without needing CCR.

CCRs are brilliant but a major headache if anything goes wrong. You don't want to be planning a major cave penetration and at the same time wonder if your unit works because you have been rebuilding your DSV for the first time or spend an hour at the dive site wondering why your unit doesn't quite pass pos/neg check (* .

I think you want to be a solid cave diver and a solid CCR diver before you start combining the two. As a minimum, you might find out that if you only can do a cave trip or two per year and cannot afford more due to time/money commitments, you might not be able to retain the skillset. Personally, I'm happy to be further "away from home" on my JJ in the ocean because I dive wrecks every weekend and happy to dive mines because I can dive from my car. I would be significantly more cautious in caves abroad simply because my setup would be different and that matters with CCRs.

If you don't have local caves, I would look at a unit and a training path that lets you dive locally - CCRs want to be dived, the machine spirit unit gets unhappy and breaks when it has to live in a crate dry for 3 months.
(* Skip leaky pos/neg rant if diving a Kiss/DiveTalk Go

 

[rddvet]

I think I sucked as a rebreather diver when I took my cave training. Hell, I still think I suck, but I try to constantly improve. I agree with your remarks since I have seen way to many ccr divers doing what I consider, dives beyond their experience/ability. I still remember what my instructor told us after the class, "Just because you are certified to be able to swim to the EOL does not mean you should do it, this card is just a license to keep learning and progressing".

Im also my worst critic, but it can be a good thing. I think to pass zero to hero in ccr is a tough feat, so I'm sure you didn't suck as bad as you thought. But I also know when I look back to my training years back all I think of is how stupid I was.

 

[rddvet]

If you plan to do most diving in the cave environment, a sidewinder style rebreather is ideal. Some will say chest mount is nice,

Or a good backmounted rebreather that won't have any of the nuances and compromises of a sidemount rebreather. You don't need to be in sidemount to dive 90+% of the caves in Florida, Mexico, and France, and a sm ccr is just plain stupid on a boat. IMO a sm rebreather isn't an ideal first rebreather. Unfortunately because the sidewinder is the internet's darling and the majority of the instructors woudl rather make money than tell someone a bm rebreahter is a better first choice for a unit, we're now at a stage where my opinion is no longer the norm. A very well known internet famous instructor even agrees with me that a sm unit isn't an ideal first unit, yet still throws everyone in one without a discussion on the pros and cons vs a bm or cm ccr.
The issue before we get too far off track is a new ccr diver has no idea what the tradeoffs of a sm unit are and therefore are oblivious. Which is why the sw is the greatest rebreather to ever hit the internets.

 

[kensuf]

I'm in the middle of a cave class and yesterday was #day3, so a bit long, apologies on the delay in responding. I also have to finish getting my stuff together to head out the door in ~30 minutes to continue, so this will be unusually brief.

Paths to CCR Cave vary and my opinion on how to get there has changed over the years. I used to be a dyed in the wool firm believer that everyone wanting to be a CCR Cave diver should do full cave on OC then shift to the CCR, but my opinion has changed as I've gotten to be an older fart. Now I'm more of in the camp of "it depends on the individual" (OMG, one size does not fit all?!? really?!)

Let me try to explain in the short time I have this morning...

Doing OC cave training first - this gives you the best and most realistic understanding of what your gas needs are PLUS getting used to the psychological time pressure of the ticking clock as you're chewing through your consumable (your gas!) and for years I felt this was the correct path for anyone wanting to take a CCR in a cave.

However, let's think about the person that has been diving CCRs for several years (decade?) and hasn't been in OC tech gear at all during that time. Putting them in OC tech gear (sidemount, backmount, it don't matter) and telling them "let's go cave diving" probably isn't going to go well. Let's all be honest for a minute, this person is going to be better suited to learning how to cave dive on the rebreather first.

So the main argument for having a person start in OC is to make them learn how to dive OC in the cave so they are aware of their consumables needs for when their rebreather sh!ts the bed. Can that goal be accomplished by someone on a CCR? Absolutely, but the instructor needs to commit to having the student do at least one bailout per day from some significant distance. As an added bonus, while they're doing those bailout swims they've got all of the drag and equipment of both their CCR and their bailout.

Generally speaking, there are 3 ways to get to CCR full cave.

1. Do it all on OC then cross over as CCR full cave through an upgrade program. I still think this is the preferred way for a lot of people.

2. Do the first half on OC ("Apprentice", "Cavern/Intro", "Cave 1") then complete the second half on CCR. I think this is also a good way, especially for people with solid CCR experience but also that still have some OC muscle memory. I really like this path for people that have some decent CCR experience but are still comfortable in OC gear.

3. Do the entire class on CCR. This is, in my mind, the least ideal way for most people BUT it is preferred for the person who has not been in OC tech gear in a long long long time. IMHO, if you're going this route the only option is to do the entire class at once (zero to hero) vs splitting into two classes.

Ken
ps - if day 3 is unleashing the kraken, is day 4 the day Cortez burns the ships?

 

[Heat Miser]

Dsix36:
I think I sucked as a rebreather diver when I took my cave training. Hell, I still think I suck, but I try to constantly improve. I agree with your remarks since I have seen way to many ccr divers doing what I consider, dives beyond their experience/ability. I still remember what my instructor told us after the class, "Just because you are certified to be able to swim to the EOL does not mean you should do it, this card is just a license to keep learning and progressing".

Im also my worst critic, but it can be a good thing. I think to pass zero to hero in ccr is a tough feat, so I'm sure you didn't suck as bad as you thought. But I also know when I look back to my training years back all I think of is how stupid I was.

I recently dived the Britannic, Kea, on the flight there (Emirates) I heard a podcast of a psychologist specialising in treating anxiety.

Apparently the polar opposite of 1) the Dunning Kruger effect (where people with limited knowledge or skill in a particular area overestimate their competence) is 2) the Imposter Syndrome (where individuals doubt their accomplishments and have a persistent fear of being exposed as a fraud, despite evidence of their competence)

What I love about teck divers is we are constantly running around in some bizarre bi-polar world assigning ourselves (and our buddies) into one of these two buckets.

I like to just strap on the gear and go for a dive and leave the arm chair phychology at home.

Your not zero to hero if ..... you have done all the pre-requisite dives prior to the training, if you have then completed and passed all the training. Planned future dives according to your training. Designed work-up dives ahead of a new project/depth/environment to ensure you have the skills and equipment and are Diving with a team that also agrees to match those requirements.

Go for it get a CCR start working up to full cave CCR, but its not a race, CCR is more dangereous than OC, Cave is more dangerous than sky diving.

Conditional probability (Cave+CCR) would state you are doing something multiple times more dangerous than OC/OW diving ... remember its not a race!!