Ramons Employee Passes away on a Blue Hole trip

[Gaz]

Downing mentions in his Belize trip report of a Ramons Village employee passing away on a trip to the Blue Hole and I thought I would comment on it.

Andy Carr was the Ramons employee that passed away that day from a suspected Embolism, Andy was a great guy and this was such a waste of a life that could of easily been avoided.

Unfortunatley with dive accidents its always the more experienced divers that seem to get overconfident with there skills and sometimes that can come back and bit you in the ass.

According to reports Andy was freediving down to about 30-40ft and took a breath from someones octopus and surfaced but forgot to breathe out which caused a fatal Embolism.

Andy had been working on Ambergris for 10 years and Ramons 3 years or so, he will be sorely missed by everyone who knew him.

Gaz Cooper

 

[TheWizard]

Ouch.
Free divers don't normally "breathe out" on ascent, since it's not needed for them.
Whether he was SCUBA certified as well and just forgot which sport he was doing that day doesn't really matter at this point...

 

[idocsteve]

That "someone" who offered his or her octopus to a possibly uncertified diver could be in real sh-t for their "good samaritan" actions that led to this freediver "passing away". I don't think the term "passing away" fits when someone dies suddenly and unaturally.

Example usage:

My grandfather "passed away" in his sleep at the age of 90.

A freediver perished following an embolism due to failure to exhale during ascent.

 

[peterbj7]

If by that you mean he could face legal action, I very much doubt it. If you mean his conscience will trouble him, then I believe it may well. Except that he didn't know that Andy would then hold his breath on his final ascent.

 

[idocsteve]

If by that you mean he could face legal action, I very much doubt it. If you mean his conscience will trouble him, then I believe it may well. Except that he didn't know that Andy would then hold his breath on his final ascent.

A certified diver handing off his regulator to a noncertified person in the water, and that person ultimately becoming a fatality as a direct result of that action is a huge liability. Although that can vary significantly by country. In the US, the "grieving family" would already be getting estimates from an ambulance chaser about how much they might receive at settlement.

 

[peterbj7]

Well thank God that Belize is not like the US. I see no reason to turn a tragedy into a charade.

 

[diverrex]

A certified diver handing off his regulator to a noncertified person in the water, and that person ultimately becoming a fatality as a direct result of that action is a huge liability. Although that can vary significantly by country. In the US, the "grieving family" would already be getting estimates from an ambulance chaser about how much they might receive at settlement.

While it might not be completely accurate I don't think it's at all unreasonable to assume that an employee of a dive charter, performing free dives to a decent depth, knows what they are doing when they breathe off another's octopus. To even begin to assert that somehow that person should be thought of as potentially liable is at the heart of what is wrong with the legal system in the US. Just because something bad happened to someone doesn't mean you need to look to someone else to blame.

 

[Downing]

I'm with Peter on this one.

We actually discussed this point while sitting on Half Moon Caye after we were told what had happened.

It's not as if this were some sort of dive plan that went awry. I imagine the diver was surprised to see Andy down there, gave him a breath without thinking much about it, and obviously didn't foresee Andy would forget to breathe out on the ascent.

And how do you know whether Andy was certified?

Stuff happens. Bad stuff sometimes. Legally responsible? I doubt it. But I'm sure the diver feels awful about what happened. Any of us in that situation would feel that way.

My wife told me she read that the reason Andy was freediving was that a small boy on the boat had decided not to snorkel so Andy had some time on his hands. I saw the boy on the pier. He was in obvious distress and was clinging to a woman who I assume was his mother. I imagine he could feel somewhat responsible, too, since the accident wouldn't have happened had they gone snorkeling. An understandable reaction but he's no more responsible than is that diver.

Andy made a mistake and paid for it with his life. We all make mistakes. Luckily, most of the time those mistakes aren't fatal.

 

[idocsteve]

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to assume that an employee of a dive charter, performing free dives to a decent depth, knows what they are doing when they breathe off another's octopus.

I'm sure that's the argument a defense attorney would try to make.

And the "other side" would bring in an expert witness that would testify as to the differences between Scuba Diving and Free Diving, who is of course paid by the opposing attorney and will respond accordingly.

To the witness: "What gear that is used in Scuba diving is also used in Freediving?"

Expert witness: Mask, snorkel, weights (?).

Anything else? Such as a REGULATOR?

Expert witness: No, not a regulator, every certified scuba diver uses one and is trained to NEVER share their equipment with a non Scuba diver because it's very dangerous and irresponsible.

Defense attorney "Objection!"

Judge: "Sustained, remove that last part from the record."

But of course the judge or jury has already heard it and after some deliberation, the grieving family is awarded 5 million for lost income and 10 million for pain and suffering.

Yeah only in the US.

Edited to Add..

But even in the US we have limits to the insanity of the court system.

I'd like to believe we'll never see the scenario whose possibility was raised by another poster on this thread.

"The prosecution asks Tommy to take the stand!"

Mommy walks up to the witness box and seats her 7 year old boy in the chair and smiles and says "Be good Tommy!" and goes back and sits down.

The prosecutor walks up to Tommy and looks him right in the eye with a sneering condescending look and says "Tommy isn't it true that on the day in question you were going to snorkel?"

Tommy: "y...y..yes sir"

"And isn't it ALSO true that you subsequently changed your mind and decided NOt to go snorkeling?"

Tommy: "What is subaquntially mean?"

"Tommy did you decide NOT to go snorkeling?!"

Tommy: "y..yes"

"Then isn't it also true that because you changed your mind, Andy decided to go Free Diving and as a direct result of that action Andy is DEAD and it's all your fault?!"

Tommy suddenly bursts into tears, the prosecuting attorney smirks and says "no more questions!", and the judge calls for the Bailiffs to remand the boy into custody pending sentencing for Murder in the second degree...Tommy's mother collapses in the front row of the courtroom sobbing hysterically as they drag Tommy kicking and screaming from the courtroom...

 

[MikeSK]

well its not as if the person who gave him the octo could actually REFUSE to do so. That WOULD be tantamount to murder or maybe manslaughter or something if Andy would have ended up drowning because someone refused to give him air.

Certified or not...if a free diver is down by me and needs air..ima give it to him. Because if he did drown I'd never be able to get over the fact that i essentially killed someone that i could have saved by one simple gesture.