Quick question on Rescue

[RJP]

Another alternative is to approach where they can see you and try to talk them into establishing buoyancy. Eye contact can sometimes help calm them a bit.

But if not- be ready to revert to your first approach.

Yeah, the duck-and-dive is a "just in case" maneuver when you have no other choice. Keeping your eyes on the diver's eyes and talking to him, telling him to drop weights/inflate BCD/put reg in mouth/etc is preferable unless you need to duck-and-dive.

 

[tomboyy]

Hmmm. During your rescue class, I'd recommend gearing up the same way you always do. Don't underweight or overweight yourself. If you purposefully overweight yourself just for the class, you won't be replicating conditions that you might encounter in real-world scenarios.

I get your drift, but in real-world scenarios, divers are sometimes adding gear or taking gear away depending on the situation. Adding a pound or two is not going to dramatically change anything but it'll help abit. I dive with a slung 30 but guess what I didn't take along on my rescue course

 

[InTheDrink]

When it comes to rescue situations, I prefer to problem solve on a case-by-case basis. Whenever you make statements using terms like "always" or "the obvious choice is..." you run the risk of not going through the decision-making process of figuring out the best course of action.

One thing that I keep in mind with a panicked diver is how large that person is. With a small, slight-of-build girl, I would consider approaching from behind (either above/underwater), simply inflating my BCD, and grabbing onto her to establish positive buoyancy. I wouldn't even consider such an approach with a large man.

You have other options open to you besides an underwater approach. A panicked diver is a danger to himself and you. You can let him tire himself out first. This is one instance in which patience can help improve the situation. You could maintain your distance and talk him into helping himself. You could also reach with some sort of implement or throw a buoy to the problem diver. I'd consider inflating my signal tube, which provides positive buoyancy and allows me to maintain my distance to the panicked diver. Lots of options to consider.

Well indeed, I appreciate that the first victim of engagement is often the plan. So on that basis I would always plan to be flexible in my thinking in what solution to design for the particular problem. However, I wanted to cross check myself to see whether there is some inherent benefit in front approaching a diver who has lost control of their wits and beyond rational thought or response.

[-]To extend the dialogue here a little - dealing with a panicked diver on the surface is one thing but dealing with the panicked diver at depth doesn't appear to be addressed in the course material that I have. Seems like a significant oversight to me. [/-]

I have my own thoughts on how to deal with this situation but would appreciate any insights you people might have on dealing with this scenario:

You are at 32m (108ft) in 18C water with 4m visibility and some current in two buddy teams of two. So reasonable if not ideal conditions. Your buddy starts showing signs of stress and before you can intervene to try to identify and eliminate the source of stress goes into increasing panic, eyes wide open, paddling a lot and your fear the next response will be to bolt.

What course of action do you take?

Thanks,
John

 

[InTheDrink]

Yeah, the duck-and-dive is a "just in case" maneuver when you have no other choice. Keeping your eyes on the diver's eyes and talking to him, telling him to drop weights/inflate BCD/put reg in mouth/etc is preferable unless you need to duck-and-dive.

I've never seen a diver on the surface in panic so I can only go on what I'm told and I have been told that in many instances, unlike a 'tired' diver, they don't respond to instruction. So my question really was directed at this scenario. Sure I would definitely try to communicate and calm a diver prior to taking any significant course of action but once I determined that the diver was in 'flight' mode my question became - are there any benefits at that point in approaching frontally.

Another way of asking the question is also: are there any down sides to approaching from behind and knee cradling to establish control of the victim?

Cheers,

John

 

[RJP]

I've never seen a diver on the surface in panic so I can only go on what I'm told and I have been told that in many instances, unlike a 'tired' diver, they don't respond to instruction. So my question really was directed at this scenario. Sure I would definitely try to communicate and calm a diver prior to taking any significant course of action but once I determined that the diver was in 'flight' mode my question became - are there any benefits at that point in approaching frontally.

Another way of asking the question is also: are there any down sides to approaching from behind and knee cradling to establish control of the victim?

Cheers,

John

Perhaps the panicked diver is just "freaked out" and then - when he/she sees you disappear - goes into FULL panic mode when they assume you've abandoned them altogether.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

I get your drift, but in real-world scenarios, divers are sometimes adding gear or taking gear away depending on the situation. Adding a pound or two is not going to dramatically change anything but it'll help abit. I dive with a slung 30 but guess what I didn't take along on my rescue course

@tomboyy: I agree that many divers will have multiple gear configurations and that adding/subtracting one or two pounds shouldn't make a big difference. However, I think it's silly to overweight yourself intentionally during a rescue course to help you "sink as fast as you can." If you knew that you would be slinging a pony or stage bottle, you should have geared up that way for your rescue class.

To extend the dialogue here a little - dealing with a panicked diver on the surface is one thing but dealing with the panicked diver at depth doesn't appear to be addressed in the course material that I have. Seems like a significant oversight to me.

This scenario was covered in the PADI Rescue class. I'm not sure if other agencies make this part of their curriculum. I agree that it would be an oversight if they didn't.

You are at 32m (108ft) in 18C water with 4m visibility and some current in two buddy teams of two. So reasonable if not ideal conditions. Your buddy starts showing signs of stress and before you can intervene to try to identify and eliminate the source of stress goes into increasing panic, eyes wide open, paddling a lot and your fear the next response will be to bolt.

What course of action do you take?

First, you have to recognize the situation. Given the depth, one potential issue is narcosis. Solution: ascend a little bit. With a buddy that looks to be exhibiting early signs of panic, a priority should be placed on halting the progression to panic. Do what you can here. Close the distance between you and your buddy. Show him/her that you are there to help (make eye contact, hold hand, grab shoulder strap, etc.). Sometimes just giving an "OK" sign might be enough to snap him out of it. Be ready to share air as you get closer (it's possible that your buddy could be having a reg malfunction). Suggest ascending a little and hovering for a while. Carbon dioxide retention could be an issue (higher probability if working against current), so establishing neutral buoyancy and minimizing movement/kicking might be helpful. There are some good strategies for diving in current that would be helpful (finding shelter from the current behind rock structures, holding onto kelp, etc.). So long as your buddy's gas supply is intact, almost any problem is manageable.

The conditions you describe are very typical for my local waters.

 

[InTheDrink]

Perhaps the panicked diver is just "freaked out" and then - when he/she sees you disappear - goes into FULL panic mode when they assume you've abandoned them altogether.

Indeed. I guess Jim's idea on doubling up front and back with two divers would be a good solution in this case - and it's an approach I will discuss with my buddy when we next meet. But in cases where he or another diver is not around to effect the rescue, I am still left unconvinced that trying to approach frontal, spinning the diver and trying to effect an under-arm lift is a very good solution in most circumstances. I could be wrong, I've never been in this situation.

Thx,
J

 

[Jim Lapenta]

You do not spin the diver. You go under and as you are going around them you grab the weight pouch handle, weight belt tail, etc. You then come up the tank, get yourself positive and if possible reach over and inflate their bc. If this is not an option at that time just dumping the belt should be enough to keep them positive. If it is necessary to not create another victim, dump the weights and if they are so violent that your safety would be threatened by grabbing them at all push them away, surface and continue to try and get their attention. You've dumped their weights, they are not going to sink, let them wear themselves out and then effect the rescue. In the coast guard rescue swimmer course in the movie "The Guardian" if a vic got ahold of you a good right cross to the jaw was what seemed to work well. Easier to treat a broken jaw or a knocked out victim than a dead one.

Hey that was a good idea! Start teaching OW students that if they panic they might get punched in the face! THIS IS A JOKE BEFORE ANYONE GETS THEIR KNICKERS IN A TWIST!

Now I need a nap. Up too early and got a lot of work done around here between posts. Later.

 

[tomboyy]

[QUOTE=Bubbletrubble" If you knew that you would be slinging a pony or stage bottle, you should have geared up that way for your rescue class.

Really... hate to burst your bubble but everyone does't bring everything they are going to dive with to a rescue course. Following that analogy I guess I should have brought my camera and both my dive lights, my scooter and my spear gun.

 

[H2O 70]

You'll learn one move, we'll actually a few, for panicked divers. Also there are panicked divers and there are PANICKED DIVERS. With a panicked diver that isn't trying to get on top of you to keep your head out of the water, you can approach them from the front, when they come at you, you can grab their forearm and pull them towards you spinning them so you end up behind them where you can control them.

Another trick with them once you are behind and in control and they are still being a wee bit combative is the ole quick dunk. Quiets them down.

Good luck!