questionable instruction for kids

[Drew Sailbum]

Genesis once bubbled...
and as their "buddy" I can't help them with the test.

I can, however, be their dive buddy.

As their dive buddy I'm not expected to help them with the test (after all, were I a student, I would not be expected to do so either!) All I'm expected to do is be their dive buddy.

What's the problem with that?

You want me to sign 27 waivers disclaiming any professional (e.g. DM, etc) relationship between you and I? Cool - done.

So where's the problem?

No, I'm not an instructor. If you want to "qual" me as a diver (assuming you won't accept the printout from my dive computer showing my recent experience) that's cool - bring your tanks and gear and let's go crank up the boat for a dive or three. I'll even treat on the fuel - just check the attitude at the dock.

The problem is that all of the other students in the course have not signed off on such a waiver. Your waiver does not absolve me of the requirement to stay within ratios established by the certifying agency.

There are a few skills which must be done as a team. Each member of the team needs to be evaluated as to their respective roles. A certified diver cannot avoid "helping" when they must take an active role in performing some of the skills. Furthermore, the recollection of those skills is often not as good as the certified diver might imagine.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Report the guy to PADI.

If it was a misunderstanding, I'm sure he'll have occasion to explain himself and to show that this is not how he handles his classes.

The other issue is whether or not to certify a 10 year old. I have kids, and no way no how should anyone under 14 be certified, I don't care if they are a genius and are attending university.

Not only do they not have the maturity to understand the consequences of some of the "simple" things they might do, they also have bones that are still growing and that may be affected by being under pressure.

There is a lot to be seen with a snorkel, and knowing how to snorkel and freedive will be a huge asset once it's time to do scuba.


Just my .02 of course.

 

[Genesis]

There are a few skills which must be done as a team. Each member of the team needs to be evaluated as to their respective roles. A certified diver cannot avoid "helping" when they must take an active role in performing some of the skills. Furthermore, the recollection of those skills is often not as good as the certified diver might imagine.

And which might those be? Ok, the OOA drills. Fine. Let's go dive; my boat, my fuel, BYOG. Signal OOA anytime you'd like, or just mug me for my primary (since I dive a long hose and bungied backup.)

Mask drills are not "buddy things". The OOA stuff is pretty much it in terms of "team" skills. If you want to know if I can do an OOA drill, one of THE most fundamental skills there is, as I said - lets go dive.

As far as the other divers in the class, they don't need to sign a waiver. The issue is your responsibility towards me. If you are so chock-full up against agency limits with your class in the first place, there are those (including me) who might argue that I'd rather not have a loved one train with you in the first place!

 

[Braunbehrens]

This is all more work for the instructor, who is already underpaid. I suggest that if you want to accompany someone through a class, you put your money where your mouth is, and take the class yourself as a refresher.

Putting the financial burden on the instructor is wrong, IMO.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...



Mask drills are not "buddy things". The OOA stuff is pretty much it in terms of "team" skills.

When one diver in a team looses a mask it is a buddy thing.

As far as the other divers in the class, they don't need to sign a waiver. The issue is your responsibility towards me. If you are so chock-full up against agency limits with your class in the first place, there are those (including me) who might argue that I'd rather not have a loved one train with you in the first place! [/B][/QUOTE]

Agency dictated maximum ratios aren't the issue. We never have any where near as many as they allow in perfect conditions because we never have perfect conditions. The issue is how many we're willing to take given the conditions we have. I take six max but that's with two or more divemasters and good vis. These days the quarries are so silted out by 10am I often split the class in half at least for the first dive. That leaves no room for tag-alongs.

Tag-alongs have been a major pain. I've had to terminate dives because of them. I've had to chase them to the surface and pull them up out of the bottom. I've had to leave students on the surface with a DM while I went to search for a missing Tag-along. I've had them run out of air and divert a divemaster away from the class. I've had to spend hours filling out incedent reports because of their antics. They're almost always are more work than the students. There have been very few exceptions.

 

[Genesis]

with you "qualifying" someone who wants to "tag along."

As I said, grab your tanks and BYOG. I'll provide the boat and fuel, and select a dive site or three. I hope you don't mind if we do some real dives, within "recreational limits", but certainly beyond the "weenie" 30' reef garbage. We can play buddy (although since you can't expect ME to trust YOU, instructor badge or no, I'm still bringing my pony if we're beyond MY comfortable CESA limits!) and we can both evaluate each other.

After all, you're asking that I trust someone I love to your instruction, right? Isn't it fair that I evaluate you, just as you evaluate me? Or does this "right of review" only cut one way - yours - with you using the club of legitimacy to enforce your way of thinking?

I'll even leave my speargun at home. After all, I will be evaluating your diving prowess - and demenaor - as an instructor for said prospective student(s).

Now for an instructor who I have dove with before, and know, there may not be an issue here. In either direction. I suspect they'd know how I dive, since I've dove with them. I also would know how THEY dive, since I've trained with them.

If you're concerned about me being a "burden" or leading to an "incident report", I hope you understand if I'm just as concerned about you, Mr. Instructor, being next to worthless or even dangerous to someone who I care about and who would like to get involved in this sport.

There is plenty of crap out there, including so-called "instructors" who think that a long hose or BP are "dangerous", just to cite two of many examples I've seen (in one case while selling Air2s to their students!)

This knife has two edges, and so long as you respect that and allow me the same right of review that you demand for my diving, there's no issue.

In fact, as I've noted, I'll even provide the boat and fuel. Its a small investment on my part since you are, after all, proposing to train someone I care about.

Right?

(BTW, I know of none of the RTSC agencies who require that you actually LOSE your mask during OW cert. Flood partway, flood completely, and remove it, yes. But it remains in your hand. Now for deco and overhead training, yes, being able to deal with it being off for a significant period of time is part of the training. But not in any OW class I've seen the written material for and certainly not in any OW class that I or any of my associates has ever taken.)

 

[Rick Inman]

OK, I can understand why an instructor wouldn't want tag-alongs, but as a father, I wouldn't let my 10 year old dive in the POOL without me, much less OW. I would not sit home waiting for the call to come pick up the body. We're not talking 18 here, we're talking TEN. You want to test my skills first, fine. Charge me for it also. But I would be with my son for every breath, period. If an instructor cannot understand why a loving father would insist on this, that instructor is not qualified to teach my kid. If no one would teach him, fine, I'll wait until he's 16 or whatever age he is mature enough to dive without a parent - but 10 years old ain't it.
I learned to dive at 13 and my dad was my buddy, my friend, my protector... and no one knew me like he did, no one could read my moods or my expression or know my limits like my dad. My father knew what I could handle - and in fact, knew how much he could depend on me at 13 years old. We were a team! I didn't dive without him until I was 16 and he knew I was ready. Forget legal issues and whats trouble for the instructor. Whatever happened to parents taking an interest and responsibility for their children - and other people getting behind that? The attitude that the dad might be too much trouble fot the instructor or a legal issue... sad... If I was an instructor, I'd wonder why the parents don't insist on being a part of the son's trainning.
And by the way, after writing this, I think I'll call my dad and thank him for supporting and being with me growing up. He was awsome. No one could have stopped him from being a part of my life.

 

[Genesis]

DING DING DING DING DING!

Hand that man a Cigar. Just don't smoke it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think we were sidetracked here. Rick Inman, I don't teach ten year olds and I don't teach 11 year olds. Beyond that it's a maybe.

As I said before at times we let freinds or family go along with the class. However it depends on lots of things like conditions, size of the class and how much help I have. Things like conditions aren't always known til we get to the site. For various reasons at times I switch buddy teams around during the class also. Releases are always required and some kind of a preassesment. Also we charge for it.

As far as family or a freind being concerned about my qualifications or abilities, that's a joke! In all the time I've been teaching and all the students I've had never, not even once have I ever had anyone (student or family) ask a single question about me other than ask how much does it costs and what time we'll finish. In fact I give a little lecture to all my students about just that. Money and time, the concern has been touching.

 

[Rick Inman]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I think we were sidetracked here. Rick Inman, I don't teach ten year olds and I don't teach 11 year olds. Beyond that it's a maybe.

Sorry, Mike, I wasn't talking about YOU and who YOU teach or how, which is why I didn't mention you(I wonder why you thought I was?), I was talking about the origional post and how my Dad brought me up to think about involving young kids in dangerous activities. That's all...