Question about Instruction

[Bubble Blower 479]

True. OTOH, you'll soon forget everything you learned. When we learn something new, it is stored in our short term memory. If we wait a few days, then repeat it, it will be transfered to long term memory.

Having a Master's Degree in Special Education I am very aware of the process of memory and the benefits of longer classes, however, I also know that every student is different and some students will learn it in an accelerated class better than some students given a year to study it. Many students struggle with High School because it is so drawn out that they lose interest. These same students will go onto college where it is much faster and love the experience.

The bad instructor will do a weekend class, the good instructor will insist on more time.

I agree that a quick one weekend class is not the best for most (note the low number here) people. I think many (not all) people looking for a weekend class aren't saying they want it all in one quick weekend. I know many people that cannot do weekday classes and need to find someone who will do it on the weekend. I have friends that took a course that met on Friday night and Saturday morning over 2 to 3 weekends. When people say weekend on the board every jumps to assume they mean 1 weekend.

Actually, I was assuming I could draw some conclusions from 18 years of experience teaching diving, during which time I've observed my students and the students of many other instructors.

I totally respect your years of experience and have read your posts with respect. I also strongly believe that in all instruction, that the students abillity is the most important and indicative factor in the learning process (like 80% of it). The instructor's skill, understanding of the subject, and attitude is next. I don't think the general standards of the shop or agency compare to the abiltities of the instructor or the student themselves (this applies to all subjects, curricula, and locations). Yes there are differences between the agencies and they have their effects but not nearly as much as these other two factors. If I needed a class for my family and I lived near you I would probably seek out your class because I think you would teach them very well due to your previous posts. I just think we need to realize that not everyone needs the longer approach and would hope the instructor would make the evaluation and let them know if the more accelerated class is not for them. I feel it's a poor instructor that can't see the need for more time and then notify the students of the increased time requirements. A wise instructor would lay this out in the beginning as a condition for the class. In private lessons the instructor can customize the course to the students needs while expecting the students to fully learn the material.

 

[Walter]

I think many (not all) people looking for a weekend class aren't saying they want it all in one quick weekend.

I teach weekend classes as well. I hold the classroom/pool over two weekends and the checkout dives on a third. OTOH, that's not the issue being discussed. There's nothing magical about a particular day of the week. Scheduling is important.

Many students struggle with High School because it is so drawn out that they lose interest. These same students will go onto college where it is much faster and love the experience.

Apples and oranges. A good class will be paced more like a college course than a high school class. In fact most colleges have several weeks to devote to SCUBA and teach a longer course than I advocate.

I also strongly believe that in all instruction, that the students abillity is the most important and indicative factor in the learning process (like 80% of it). The instructor's skill, understanding of the subject, and attitude is next. I don't think the general standards of the shop or agency compare to the abiltities of the instructor or the student themselves (this applies to all subjects, curricula, and locations).

I agree with much of this, but with a few exceptions. A student's basic ability is very important, but unless the student is at the far end (either end) of the ability scale, his attitude is even more important.

Agency standards, in most cases (an excellent instructor will add what he feels is lacking), determine exactly what will be taught. If the standards don't mandate it, few instructors include it. Most instructors think their agency is close to perfect. They follow the standards to the letter neither leaving out anything nor adding to the class. If certain material/skills are never introduced, the student can't learn it regardless of ability or attitude.

I do take ability into consideration. When a student needs more time, we take the extra time until all skills are mastered. When a student masters a skill quickly, we move on. I do have them repeat the skill after a few days to make sure they really have it down.

I believe we are much more in agreement than we originally thought.

 

[jerrynuss]

Medic Diver, I would be happy to work with you on training if you would e-mail me to discuss it off this forum. I teach privately and independently and at a university. The university scuba course is 16 weeks consisting of 2 hour class and 2 hour pool per week then a week of checkout dives in West Palm Beach or Pompano Beach or local in the summer. Private courses can be completed over a couple of weekends but there is no guarantee of certification in either course. The student must still pass the course and earn the certification. jnuss@hcis.net

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

Agency standards, in most cases (an excellent instructor will add what he feels is lacking), determine exactly what will be taught. If the standards don't mandate it, few instructors include it. Most instructors think their agency is close to perfect. They follow the standards to the letter neither leaving out anything nor adding to the class. If certain material/skills are never introduced, the student can't learn it regardless of ability or attitude.

I agree the standards allow an instructor to teach at the Lowest Common Denominator. Even these minamalist teachers can certify good students, because of the student and in spite of the instructor. I also know of students that were taught by a great instructor and turn out to be really bad divers or at least substandard. I'm sure we all know of people in both categories. With that said, I wish more instructors would go beyond the minimum.

I also agree that agency loyalty has become a religion to some. I really don't care what the agency the instructor is from. If you truly love to teach you will seek to lift the student. I think too many want to become an instructor in a competitve effort to go beyond other divers or even to start a career about something they are currently excited about. Sadly many get discouraged that the pay is far less than expected and find out that few people have successful full time carees as dive instructors. I also think there are many that go into teaching for the love of teaching and find joy in their students success. That attitude is what makes good teachers in all fields.

I do take ability into consideration. When a student needs more time, we take the extra time until all skills are mastered. When a student masters a skill quickly, we move on. I do have them repeat the skill after a few days to make sure they really have it down.

My previous post assumed this about your teaching. As stated before, I have great respect for your teaching. Most of the statements I have made were prompted by comments and less about the orginal post and were meant to be broad principles rather than specific statements.

I believe we are much more in agreement than we originally
thought.

As do I.

 

[medic_diver45]

I'm glad you're not mad at me Walter, I don't like having people dislike me- especially over something like a misunderstanding of something that was said (the misunderstanding was on my part in this case).

Mike, I stand corrected, there may be places where you are where you can see those things, but around Terre Haute the water is so d-mn murky that you have to be with a foot of someting before you see it. A 7' paddlefish would be a bit unnerving under conditions like that. The biggest things I've ever seen while (skin)diving around here were an alligator snapping turtle that was roughly 2 1/2 feet across it's shell (and the head was about the size of a small canteloupe- needless to say I got out of the water pretty fast) and a catfish that was laying on the bottom....didn't get a good look at all of it, just the back 2 feet of it. Most of the time, we just see small schools of bluegill and the occassional bass.

I was trying to find an anchor for a friend in a local lake and I saw something that looked like a 2' or 3' green-striped barracuda (the body was thicker than the 'cudas I saw while in Florida though)....could have been a pike, but they aren't supposed to be this far south in Indiana. The viz there was about 10' (6' is great for around here because most places have muddy bottoms, but this place has a mostly rocky bottom) and the fish swam by about 5' away so I got a pretty good look at it.

 

[TheRedHead]

I was trying to find an anchor for a friend in a local lake and I saw something that looked like a 2' or 3' green-striped barracuda (the body was thicker than the 'cudas I saw while in Florida though)....could have been a pike, but they aren't supposed to be this far south in Indiana. The viz there was about 10' (6' is great for around here because most places have muddy bottoms, but this place has a mostly rocky bottom) and the fish swam by about 5' away so I got a pretty good look at it.

A gar? I used to catch them fishing in the lakes of Arkansas and Mississippi. Is this it?
http://floridafisheries.com/updates/gar.html

I understand your wish to dive the reefs of Florida instead of the local quarry. I had scheduled my OW checkout dives for Sept. 9 and 10 in Marthon FL (middle keys) after finishing my pool and class work locally. I did so partly because hubby dives and wanted to do some diving while I was doing my checkout dives and I couldn't imagine a more pleasant spot for my checkout dives. Great reefs, shallow water, sun and fun.

We arrive in Marathon on the 8th, spend one night, then head out to the dive shop. The shop decides to cancel because the viz was bad from Frances and they heard that Ivan was headed towards the keys and we might have to evacuate. We go back to the hotel and sure enough there was a notice under the door to evacuate Marathon. We pack up and get in the car and head north.

We stopped at a dive shop in Key Largo with the intention of only shopping and lamented our story to guy behind the counter. He asked if I would like to have my OW checkouts that day and the next as the Best Western in Largo was not evacuating. Of course, I jumped at the chance.

We drive down to where the dive boat was docked. There are 2 certified divers, a Discover Scuba couple and me and hubby (also certified), with 2 instructors, 1 DM and another crew member. I set up my gear and we head to the Dry Rocks. I briefly talk to the instructor (who did not make me feel comfortable) and he tells me the first dive will be just a short swim around. We get to the spot and there is only one other dive boat there, which is very unusual as everyone wants to dive the Christ statue.

It became quickly apparent that there was a strong surge that day as the boat is rocking and pitching and I soon began to feel queasy. We giant stride into the water and drop down the anchor line. The viz was 15 to 20 feet at best. My stomach feels a bit better, but we had to fight a strong current to get to the Christ of the Abyss statue. The surge was pretty bad even on the bottom and it was a struggle to keep up with the instructor. After 40 minutes we ascend up the line and emerge into what felt like the rinse cycle of a Matag. I immediately tossed some chunks which were greedily consumed by a small school of yellowtail snapper. I pulled myself together, removed my fins on the line and pulled myself to the ladder and went up the ladder. The boat was pitching so hard that the DM and mate had to hold on to everyone while we staggered to the bench.

Both of the pair of certified divers ascended about 100 yards down current from the boat, tossed their chunks, and one had to be rescued and towed by the dive master. Meanwhile and I was descending into the throes of full-blown seasickness. I have been on many snorkel boats in the Keys and never been truly seasick. I got the dry heaves on the Dry Rocks and just curled up into a ball on the deck wishing I was dead. I reassessed the idea of diving and decided I was never going to dive again (if I survived this). I vowed not do the 2nd dive and prayed for a swift return to the dock.

We arrived at the 2nd spot, anchored, but no one was willing to get in again. The boat was pitching at a steeper angle and since no one wanted to dive, we motored back to the dock. After getting to the car, I recovered my desire to become a certified diver, but we decided that the Keys, at that time, were definitely not the place for my checkout dives.

We drove up to Huntsville AL and I did my checkouts at the Madison AL quarry and the cool, murky water felt like Paradise after my experiences in Key Largo. I hope to drive back to Madison next weekend for some practice.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[DandyDon]

We get to the spot and there is only one other dive boat there, which is very unusual as everyone wants to dive the Christ statue.

Funny, of all the times I've been there - as a snorkeler, then divers in various stages, I've never wanted to dive the statue, and haven't. I'm different, I guess.

Sounds like it was a day most of the operators were right - don't go. Dry Rocks offers more shelter, I guess, but in weather like that - for more experienced, it's better to dive the deep wrecks where you can get under it, and the shallow surge won't be as bad. For the less experienced, stay ashore, less you get turned off by a bad experience, like you felt for a while. Your first good clue was when they evacuated Marathon. Those Discover divers won't be back! Which operator did that to you, please?

Glad you survied undaunted, and got carded after all! :medal:

 

[scubajoe]

Y'all can go to Balmorhea where she can certify in San Solomans Springs State Park's cozy 72F clear water, and you can be bored to tears in a 20 foot deep pond with minnows.

There are turtles, blue catfish, the endangered Texas pupfish and if you are lucky some very "nice" snorkelers in the summer!

Joe

 

[TheRedHead]

Funny, of all the times I've been there - as a snorkeler, then divers in various stages, I've never wanted to dive the statue, and haven't. I'm different, I guess.

It's more appealing when you are on top snorkeling. Up close, it looks sort of bare and unnatural as if someone cleans it. I don't know if the fact that it is bronze keeps it from becomming encrusted or what, but I had expected it to be overgrown a bit with coral. There is a ledge on one side of it that has some nice coral growth. One thing the statute does is make it very apparent how shallow the reef is at Dry Rocks.

Sounds like it was a day most of the operators were right - don't go. Dry Rocks offers more shelter, I guess, but in weather like that - for more experienced, it's better to dive the deep wrecks where you can get under it, and the shallow surge won't be as bad. For the less experienced, stay ashore, less you get turned off by a bad experience, like you felt for a while. Your first good clue was when they evacuated Marathon. Those Discover divers won't be back! Which operator did that to you, please?

Glad you survied undaunted, and got carded after all! :medal:

Well thanks for the medal. I emailed the original dive shop the day before we left (the 7th) and they indicated everything was a go. I think they felt guilty that I showed up and didn't really stress the bad conditions as much as the pending evacuation. Both my husband and I felt the authorities were over-reacting (can't really blame them considering the traffic jams that ensue) as Ivan was still 800 miles away at that time and moving at 15 mph. We figured we had plenty of time to do the 4 dives and get out of there.

The Largo LDS shouldn't have tried to fill spots on their boat knowing how bad the water conditions were. On the one hand, I can understand a need for businesses and the Keys were bereft of tourists at that time.

The Discover scuba couple were the only ones (besides my ex-navy hubby) who didn't lose their lunch as far as I could see. They may have been too freaked out to think about it. I saw them with their instructor examining some coral while we swam by. They seemd to have taken it real easy. One thing which may have contributed to the seasickness was a lot of activity before surfacing. My instructor never stopped finning and it seemed like we were constantly swimming at a breakneck pace to see everything. We did see a 5 ft. nurse shark swimming by which was the high point of the dive.

This young kid of an instructor was rather odd. He wore a BC which looked like it had been shredded with a razor blade. I mean it had tufts of stuffing sticking out of it all over. It did not instill confidence in me that he was a serious instructor who would look after my welfare.

I was never frightened while on the reef; I knew it was shallow and I had snorkelled it before, it was the intense retching afterwards which temporarily made a lubber out of me. I think I may have clogged my regulator when I barfed (maybe the grits for breakfast?) as it freeflowed during my first dive at the quarry 2 days later.

During my checkouts I received additional education in handling a real free flowing reg at 30 feet, barfing into my regulator, ascending a bucking ladder with fins on my wrists and diving in poor visibility. I also learned never to get on a dive boat without taking something to prevent seasickness and never to trust a dive shop operation without checking things out and thinking things through for myself.

It was a learning experience - both the bad reef dive and the quarry with almost no viz and I feel confident to dive again. We are doing the Texaribbean cruise at the end of October and should be able to dive Cozumel, Belize and Roatan. Used some bonus miles .... and got a great deal. This should more than make up for the Keys fiasco.

I don't want to mention the dive shop on this board as it has had some pretty good reviews here. I will PM you with it if you wish.

Thanks!