PSD or Commercial?

[Canal Diver]

And by the way, the "No Dive" decision is the first chapter in our policy and always has been the diver's decision. No supervisor (or Chief) can force a diver to make a dive he doesn't feel safe doing.

 

[mavdog]

My understanding of the NFPA is that they are just guidelines.

I also understand that DRI and MR. Blades himself are leading the charge to revise NFPA 1006 and form what I hear it should be official this spring.

I would love to hear from him though.

 

[116fire]

no chief can force...
It has been said that men go into battle not for king and country but because of the men standing next to them...
Its our job to go into marginal/dangerous conditions...
That being said, we are not required to be suicidal, but that is hardly the case with the dive described above.
That said I would have probably done it if asked, as long as it didn't look completely deadly/stupid to me.
I think a better (harder) question would be as a chief/dive superviser would you send your guys into a situation when YOU are asked. Bearing in mind that your guys will probably go even if the situation is marginal. How dangerous is it vs. possible benefits...loss of life and property etc.
Now there is yet another question, which is should some descision maker above the public safety level have asked these divers to take on this mission? Probably not. Should the utility that runs the water dept. have had some comercial divers on call--yes, and done some preplanning for this sort of event, yes
What a can of worms.
Glad no one got hurt/killed.
Stay safe everyone.

 

[PaulSmithTek]

I completely agree that this is a Commercial Dive and NOT a PSD dive.

 

[The Chad]

I guess I don't get the question so I probally polled wrong. IMHO the senerio should have been a commercial dive conducted by commercial divers. Looked to me like they had PSD ers doing commercial work. finding people underwater is one thing, wrenching on things underwater is another

 

[bridgediver]

LGS calls themselves "the leader in water rescue and recovery training" and they'll teach me to be a PSD Instructor in 10 days.

This is untrue. The 10 day course, which only has about a 50% pass rate (to meet the LGS instructor level) takes months to prep for and at its conclusion you are only an AI for the actual PSD courses. To become a full PSD instructor takes allot of assisting before hand, perhaps a year or 2 depending on how hard you work. What it does do is enable you to train entry level divers with an emphasis on PSD ie pony bottles, FFM, dry suit, harness, blackwater, entanglements etc. It doesn't create an instructor to certify full fledged PSD (RDS&R/R). It takes allot more work


Any standard can be considered a guidline down there because you have no legislation making them manditory. But if the team chooses to adopt one that can be an enforceable standard - NFPA, DRI, LGS all have standards its up to the team to choose to adopt them or not. Also bear in mind just because you don't use standard XYZ doesn't mean it can't be used against you in case you screw up especially if most standards do a certain thing - ie perform PSD with a tethered diver.

Up here we have a manditory standard called CSA that we must follow; it is legislated. Most of the PSD training organizations would comply to this standard now (as does the NFPA) but without using a PSD training agency of some sort we'd be illegal. Recreational dive practices can't be used up here for PSD

 

[dittrimd]

In my opinion public safety divers are for an immediate threat to life. Had there been a trapped worker who was in the valve chamber when the line burst and then if a rescue attempt was deemed possible they can do their thing. I just do not see the immediate threat to personal safety.

While the potentential problems of the lower water pressure or the complete loss of pressure do create a potential problem for public safety it is not an immediate one. I am sure there are other failure modes which a dive team could not fix the problem. There should be some type of contingency plan in the event of a complete failure that still protects the public.

The dive team should not have been used in this situation. Commercial operations better suited for this type of work should have been used. Let the dive team back up the commercial operation in the event they have a problem.

That is the chapter and verse answer but we all know that as PSD we are asked to do many things that are outside of our scope. If I had a nickel for all the tow truck hook I put on vehicles in the water where there was no person in danger I would have a lot of nickels.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark D.

 

[BladesRobinson]

My understanding of the NFPA is that they are just guidelines.

I also understand that DRI and MR. Blades himself are leading the charge to revise NFPA 1006 and form what I hear it should be official this spring.

I would love to hear from him though.

Mavdog,

Please know I am not "leading the charge" as there are MANY fine people involved in this process. DRI, the IADRS, and many others have supported this process for several years and it is my opinion that the standard has greatly increased diver safety. Through the efforts of smart people we have all benefited and I am proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with those who have supported the process.

As you eluded to, the NFPA Standards lack enforceability if they are not adopted as Federal, State or Municipal law. While the standards may "lack teeth" in a criminal court system, they carry a "mouthful of fangs" in the civil court.

Training agencies, dive team leaders, agency administrators and political appointees should give strong consideration to the NFPA Standards as it relates to liability.

I can tell you, in the updated DRI/DR-1 program (released Oct 2007) the text was written with the NFPA in mind. We did a "limited edition" printing on the student manuals in anticipation of future updates and we have begun the process of informing DRI trainers to anticipate annual updates to their teaching materials. The industry is evolving and DRI plans to stay in the leading position, thanks to many who are smarter than I. (You gotta love smart people!)

One thing that the NFPA committee members did, and I give them kudos for it, is putting the responsibility on the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine their specific needs. The NFPA is challenged today in the same way the OSHA group was challenged in the 1970s; how to "regulate" and "standardize" public safety diving. The needs are so diverse it is nearly impossible to wrap one's arms around it.

In the 1980s, I was asked to participate in the drafting of a national PSD standard for the IADRS. I was on a committee with a fairly easy task (I thought); to come up with a list of basic equipment and specifications. Being "new in PSD" but having taught (recreational) SCUBA and having a quantity of dives under my belt, I assumed it would be prudent for divers to have a mask. This seemed like a "no brainer" until someone smarter than I asked about Superlites. I suggested that the masks should have tempered glass and another person mentioned that the Interspiro mask had a plastic lens. I thought divers should have snorkels (remember the PADI, mouth to snorkel technique?) and someone asked why divers wearing a full face mask would want a snorkel too. And it started to become apparent to me, that the folks who write these standards are incredibly smart and I didn't know as much as I thought I did!

Since then, another 20 years has elapsed and I have worked to increase my knowledge, but I still have a LONG way to go before I call myself "smart." The advantage I have now is I know the smart people and I am not afraid to ask questions and pass that information along to others (I've been doing that for years now). But even with knowledge and the benefit of many smart people wanting to volunteer their services, I believe the AHJ is in the best position to determine the needs for thier community. I suspect I don't care for "big brother" taking on a "one shoe fits all" approach when I would really prefer "gloves and a cap" instead of "shoes." The AHJ is in the best position to make "risk/benefit" decisions AND when divers have the ability to make good "dive/no dive" decisions based on their knowledge, skill and ability, AND they have the proper equipment, THEN the citizens are served well and saved is assured.

I could start my own company, copy and paste from available on-line policy and procedure manuals, and I could be the next DRI or LGS.

Canal, I understand where you're coming from and there are many one man shows now waving "PSD flags" and advertising they are THE DEAL. I am not certain a "mandated" standard will make things better and I suspect that the NFPA standard may prove my point. The "one man shows" market their programs as being NFPA compliant (that should be a warning sign!), OSHA compliant and RSTC compliant. What they are really admitting to, in my opinion, is they have more book knowledge than "real world" experience. If someone TRULY knows the NFPA standards, they will know that the ONLY agency that can say a person is "compliant" is the AHJ. DRI markets programs as providing NFPA technician level training. Companies that say they offer NFPA "certification" don't have a clue so that's why I mention, this claim should be a warning sign.

I hope this addresses the latest round of questions to me. I am worried about Gary though... No posts in the past 48 hours... GARY ... are you alive???

Ohh... I just saw an avatar of Gary -->

Sitting on the sidelines eating popcorn...

C'mon G, get in the fray here. You're the moderator and voice of reason!

 

[Gary D.]

One difference here I haven’t seen surface yet is how differently a PSD and a Commercial Diver approach a situation like this.

In the article it was stated that they, the PSD’s were expecting two valves but were confronted by six. By any account this was a major FUBAR. This wasn’t a car, bus or plane crash where what we are going into is largely an unknown. It’s a long standing municipal construction site that has workers maintaining it on a daily basis and know whats there.

Having been on both sides of the fence I know a PSD focuses on a target and how to go for it. Very little if any planning but looking at doing it as quickly and safely as possible. A Commercial Diver on the other hand wants to know what they are facing and what tools will be needed to get the job done correctly and safely. One of those tools is going to either be talking to someone in the know, who knows how many valves are in the area and/or looking at the most current blueprints of the project.

I know this is going to sound a bit trivial to some but let’s look at a couple of what ifs. The team going in made a 66% goof in what they were expecting to run into. That is not a small error. What if along with the 4 extra valves was more machinery not disclosed to the diver’s? Say a suction pump ( it only takes a small one), electrical equipment that was still live, a high pressure discharge pump or any number of other machinery that could be deadly to a diver.

How soon we forget. Not all that long ago a similar situation, with much less risk to the divers took way to many lives. It was near the small town of Zillah Washington. This was the result of using unqualified divers to do a commercial dive to save someone some time and money. There could have been two more deaths if someone hadn’t stepped forward and stopped this mass suicide. This was a dive I would like to do today. It can be done very safely but some very simple miscalculations took place that proved deadly.

PSD’s needs to stay focused more on saving lives and recovering what ever needs recovering and leave the wrenching to the folks with the wrenches.

Is this popcorn bucket bottomless?:mooner:

I need to fire my campaign manager. I honestly thought I would have the only "Dark Side" vote.

Gary D.

 

[james croft]

I was asked to do a similar job as a PSD in VA just in the past month or two to shut off an intake pipe 20' below the surface in a public resevoir. It was leaking hundreds of thousands of gallons a day. I did not want to do it as the intake location was not known but would have to be searched for in zero vis. This needed to be cut off so a pump could be removed. Turns out there was a goose neck connection on a dam that could be unbolted to break the siphon above the water on dry land. Public works did not want to go through the trouble of unbolting it as they thought a diver could slap a piece of steel plate over the pipe end real easy. It was a risky dive, a commercial dive and just the kind of dive that would kill the well meaning diver trying to save the town some money and time. We told them to get their wrenches and start unbolting.