PSD or Commercial?

[Canal Diver]

OK, here I go with my very first response...

What really is a "public safety diver", other than a public safety employee, who has a little more specialized training, and can breathe underwater? Ultimately you still work for the taxpayers that provide your paycheck and you do what you're told. Before you strapped on that SCUBA tank as a cop or fireman, if a cow or horse got loose, you didn't tell the dispatcher "call the livestock guys, that ain't my job". I've turned off gas meters without waiting for the gas man, I've been a personal bodyguard for celebrities and I've done a dozen other tasks I've been told to do because someone knew I knew how. When the mayor calls the chief and says "hey, I know you have divers, and the water department needs help" you don't tell the chief, "sorry, not my job, call Joe's commercial dive outfit." You pull on your wet suit and you get wet. In a perfect world, sure but when was the last time this was a perfect world? You take your chances on THIS call, just like you take your chances every single day with every single call. But you knew it was different and dangerous when you signed up. And I dare Joe to sue the city because they used their own resources to solve a problem. I don't see every mechanic in the country lining up to sue because the city fixes their own cars and equipment.

OK, go ahead, I'm ready to be jumped on.

 

[bridgediver]

Nice first post - most internet forums would call this a "troll"

you don't tell the chief, "sorry, not my job, call Joe's commercial dive outfit."

Unless the chief is an idiot he wouldn't even ask his dive team if he got such a request. Issues of liability, insurance etc etc are in play here which the chief should be aware of.

Put it this way, what if a real call came in within the window of a rescue and the team couldn't go because they weren't fast enough or maybe just plainly too fatigued to run a 2nd op properly to effect the rescue?

"Sorry we couldn't save your son, sir but we were trying to save the city some money at the time"

I can tell by your opening question that you have no knowledge about PSD whatsoever... If you're the type of guy that will do anything beacause you're "told to" (as you imply) you wouldn't make a very good PSD anyway (or firefighter for that matter)


You asked for it, there ya go

 

[ReefGuy]

OK, here I go with my very first response...

What really is a "public safety diver", other than a public safety employee, who has a little more specialized training, and can breathe underwater? Ultimately you still work for the taxpayers that provide your paycheck and you do what you're told.

And how exactly are PSDs trained to handle this situation?

Does this mean that cops should put out fires too? Or firemen respond to bank robberies? Maybe the Clerk of the Court should also direct High School cirriculum.

 

[BladesRobinson]

Where would one draw the line or should draw the line between calling a Commercial Dive Opp and just doing it yourself?

Blades this is your thread if Im out of line here just tell me to shut up and go away.

Mavdog,

I think you ask an EXCELLENT question; you are certainly NOT out of line. There are many times when the decision between PSD and Commercial is as clear as black and white. There are other times when there are shades of grey and that is where smart people have to make good decisions with the primary consideration being "safety."

DRI coined the term "public safety diving" back in the 1970s and I wonder where the industry would be today if the term Steve Linton came up with was "public service diver."

In the fire SERVICE and the law enforcement SERVICE, there are many things we do that is SERVICE oriented and not necessarily SAFETY oriented. In the fire service, firemen are called to remove people from stalled elevators, conduct "boot drives" for MDA, turn water valves off late at night when toilets overflow or hot water heaters rupture. How about law enforcement officers helping a motorist with a flat tire, giving them a ride or allowing them to use the department issued cell phone? How about unlocking a car door? Have none of us ever towed a vessel back to a dock?

We could tell citizens to "call a plumber"; "call Triple A"; call "Tow Boat US" ... but that isn't "service." In addition to "safety" we oftentimes provide "service" to the citizens who pay our salaries.

When it comes to hooking up wreckers to submerged vehicles, is it safer to have one of "our guys" who are already in the water (most instances) and trained to operate in limited visibility, or do we allow the wrecker company to call Joe Schmo at the dive store? The idea that ADC member commercial dive team is going to mobilize for a car in the ditch four counties away is not practical.

Has anyone ever raised a boat for "training?"

There are a lot of things we do that fall into a grey area and when we do these operations, we strive to take on nearly "zero" risk and assure team member safety. If things don't seem quite right, then we "pass the buck" and have dispatch call for someone more qualified or with more specialized equipment.

In the case at Schreveport, I can not honestly say our team wouldn't have done something similar. I can assure the forum members though, that we would have been in strict compliance with OSHA and ADC Standards and if we weren't, I would have "passed the buck" in a "New York second."

I am confident that my team members have sufficient training and experience working safely in confined spaces, conducting "lock out/tag out" procedures, etc. If these trained members can spin an OS&Y valve on a commercial structure fire wearing SCBA and turnouts, they can do a similar operation in 4 feet of water using SCUBA and PPE. The task is not "rocket science" but the need to follow federal and industry guidelines is REQUIRED and the need to assure that the operation is SAFE is paramount.

The root of this post, and the results of this poll indicate the PSD exemption in the OSHA standard would NOT APPLY (in the opinion of readers, including myself). For this reason, federal and industry guidelines would need to be applied to assure team member safety.

As I mentioned previously, the intent of this post was to share ideas and learn. I truly was uncertain how many might believe that the PSD exemption would apply. I know teams get confused on this issue and it is important for "us" to understand when we are "crossing the line." While all of us do NOT want to "cross the line" in the few instances when we get into the "grey area" we MUST follow other standards and the "bar is raised" as it relates to safety, equipment needs and training. If a team can't "raise the bar" then they MUST "pass the buck."

My opinion...

Blades

 

[BladesRobinson]

OK, go ahead, I'm ready to be jumped on.

Holly cow Brother... welcome to the forum! You have an opposing view and in the spirit of learning, I enjoy hearing your thoughts.

You asked for it, there ya go

:whack:
Wow Bridge... that last sentence was mean spirited... Where did THAT come from??? Take a deep breath buddy... This is only an internet forum...


We all have opinions and everyone is entitled to hear mine <grin>.
I am not the forum moderator but I believe it is important to have some decorum and restraint here.

Not to beat a dead horse ...

but the intent of the forum is to learn, share ideas and opinions, and work to keep "safety" in public safety diving. Brothers and friends, I ask that we please "take the high road."

This is Canal Diver's first post and I think at least one of his points is accurate. I too "dare Joe (from Joe's commercial dive outfit) to sue the city because they used their own resources to solve a problem." I don't think a commercial dive contractor has a leg to stand on as it relates to a civil suit against the City.

On the flip side, if there were safety violations, OSHA could come in and levy some horrendous fines and there isn't an easy way to mitigate that!

I am hopeful that "City Hall" remembers that the dive team helped them out and will support the team with more training, equipment and support in the future. I am also hopeful that WE can continue to learn from others and respect those with different opinions.

Fraternally,

Blades

 

[Canal Diver]

Sorry, I'm not a troll and I resent the implication. Also sorry if I come off a little brusk, its just me. I wouldn't want to make a good firefighter, I'm a cop. God created cops so firemen would have heroes. (That's a joke.)

As for telling the mom we couldn't save her son, it wouldn't be an issue for two reasons... 1.) We don't do rescues. That's the Fire Department. We train for and do recovery only. 2.) There are 12 divers on our team, two 6 man teams. There would be a team available, IF we did rescues. The non diving team would respond, the second team would cancel their non-essential mission to support them. Moot point, since we don't.

Every private corporation that trains PSD's has a different curriculum. There is no standard of training for PSD's that I am aware of. If there is an adopted federal or state standard, please educate me.

What part of the aforementioned scenario made this dive any more dangerous or having more liability than any other dive we do? Actually, compared to some dives our team has done, this would be a piece of cake.

I'm not trying to take anything away from any PSD program, I simply want to determine who, after the many number of years the phrase "Public Safety Diver" has been coined, determines exactly when you are one. Is it DRI? LGS? IADRS? NAPD? We have a PADI Divemaster on our team with 35 years of diving experience. We don't call ourselves Public Safety Divers, we're simply cops that dive on duty and we've been doing it as a team for 3 years. We are an underwater recovery unit, we're funded by our city, we have some of the best equipment available, but we haven't been able to find any training suitable to our environment. Virtually every dive we do is tethered, in current, with a drop gate or siphon nearby. We wouldn't think of using a cutaway tether, which most swiftwater training employs. We use underwater comm (hardwired, since we're tethered anyway) and we always have a team of 90% divers standing by.

As for the other question of hooking up a car to a tow, we obtained training just for that scenario. We sanitized a car, sunk it in a lake, and spent several days with a dive certified tow operator. We don't do a dive that is beyond our level of experience or safety. We train monthly, in various scenarios that we would encounter on duty and safety is always paramount in everything we do.

As for a chief that "wouldn't even ask", well, I've been in this business for 30 years, and I haven't yet met a chief or administrator who hasn't satisfied a stupid request from his boss for politics sake.

 

[BladesRobinson]

And how exactly are PSDs trained to handle this situation?

ReefGuy,

In most training programs, divers are taught that they ultimately make the "dive/no dive" decision and they are ultimately responsible for their own safety. In most department's written proceedures, this is reinforced with the concept that all team members are responsible for safety and anyone on the team can stop an operation to resolve a safety issue.

I stated in a previous post, I really believe that the operation in Shreveport was conducted safely and within normal guidelines. With all of the resources on scene, I am confident that safety was discussed and that EVERYONE was comfortable with the dive plan.

If there was a safety issue, I would have thought we would have seen some follow-up by the IAFF Local. There has been none to date.

There is more to this story too...
I have read another report at:
The Shreveport Times

• LSU Health Sciences Center (LSUHSC) closed its clinics.
• Elective surgeries at LSUHSC and elective admissions at Christus Schumpert were temporarily suspended for the day.
• Willis-Knighton Health System sent nonessential personnel home.
• Fresenius Medical Care closed five of its Shreveport dialysis centers.
• Caddo Correctional Center was locked down Thursday as jail officials shut off the water supply. (Blades wonders ... How does a correctional facility go into "lock down?")
• Restaurants were advised to voluntarily close.

 

[Canal Diver]

Blades wonders ... How does a correctional facility go into "lock down"?

Is that a real question, or are you being facetious?

 

[BladesRobinson]

1. God created cops so firemen would have heroes.

2. If there is an adopted federal or state standard, please educate me.

3. I simply want to determine who, after the many number of years the phrase "Public Safety Diver" has been coined, determines exactly when you are one.

4. As for a chief that "wouldn't even ask", well, I've been in this business for 30 years, and I haven't yet met a chief or administrator who hasn't satisfied a stupid request from his boss for politics sake.

Brother, again, welcome to the forum!

Regarding the four quotes above I wanted to offer some insight.

1. Your joke was received and I too got a chuckle. I hadn't heard that one so thanks for sharing. I'm glad to see you too have a sense of humor.
2. There is a federal standard that affects public safety divers. It is the NFPA 1006 standard for "Professional Qualifications" and it is being released this year. The training agencies in the alphabet soup you mentioned are all working to determine how their programs will comply with the standard. Even though you're a law enforcement officer, many legal experts in the industry strongly believe any agency (including law enforcement) conducting public safety dive operations need to comply with NFPA 1006 and NFPA 1670. The body that certifies the NFPA code development process is the American National Standards Institute (ANSI). ANSI is the official U.S. representative to the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) and this is why the NFPA standards apply to ALL public safety divers, not just firefighters. To date, it is THE most current consensus standard specifically addressing public safety diving. The DRAFT version of the updated 1006 Standard is available at:
   http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/ROP/1006-F2007-ROPDraft.pdf and the 1670 Standard can be viewed at:
   http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_agreement.asp?id=167004
3. The Federal Government, through OSHA defines public safety diving as being "for search, rescue, or related public safety purposes by or under the control of a governmental agency" REF: 1910.401(a)(2)(ii)
4. I AGREE! Fortunately we have an opportunity to learn and with proper guidelines in place, all divers should have the ability to make a "dive/no dive" decision and they will be supported by their unions and the industry professionals.

I also wanted to share a snippet of information from Steven Sea Butler, Director of Office of Maritime Enforcement for OSHA regarding the PSD exclusion. In a previously published article, he wrote, "this exclusion does not apply when work other than search, rescue and related public safety diving is performed ([FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]e.g., [/FONT]police divers repairing a pier)." This further supports the opinions stated on this forum that the dive conducted by the divers in Shreveport would need to follow the OSHA Commercial Diving guidelines.

...and YES, I was being facetious with my earlier post but I thought it would cause some to wonder what the difference is between being "locked up" and "locked down."

 

[Canal Diver]

Thanks Blades, for your response. I purchased the hard copy of the 1670 Standard since I couldn't read it online. (IT won't let me install the Reader). Until these standards are adopted though, my question will not be answered. There currently is no minimum standard of training for one to call himself a Public Safety Diver. As a cop, I have to complete a minimum of 585 hours of academy training before the State will call me a Police Officer. This doesn't include all the additional local training I have to go through with my own agency once I graduate. If I want to ride a motorcycle, there is additional, state provided training, at minimum levels, with proficiency tests. If I want to teach other cops, I have to complete a 40 hours instructor course, then pass a test. I know Fire has the same rigorous requirements before being able to to anything besides hold a hose.

It is that minimum standard of training I'm looking for. There isn't one, and unless it's contained within 1670, which I wasn't able to see, my question still stands. With the current mish-mash of training of available, I can go to a DRI Dive Rescue I and Med Dive training, then I'm qualified to go to a PSD Trainer course.

LGS calls themselves "the leader in water rescue and recovery training" and they'll teach me to be a PSD Instructor in 10 days.

All I need from the NAPD is a 40 hr course and I can take their 92 hr instructor course.

You see what I mean? I could start my own company, copy and paste from available on-line policy and procedure manuals, and I could be the next DRI or LGS. (With deference to all your training and experience and a boatload of respect).