Proper amount of lead??????

[Lukiedukie]

I am doing my OW dives this up coming weekend and I am wondering how much lead I should be wearing? I am a 230lbs man and will be wearing a 4/3 neosport fullsuit. In the pool session I have had on 10 lbs in shorts and a tee shirt and I was pretty close to eye level with no air in my BCD and holding a full breath of air. I am curious aroud how much additional lead I should be adding? My instructor said I should be around 18 lbs total but I am wondering if I should bring extra just in case. Any help on this would be great.

Oh yea we will be diving with alum 65 (I think) on our backs. One more question I was wondering if I would get alot more time under water wiht an alum 80 instead if a 65.

Thanks in advance

 

[Sideband]

You will have to do a buoyancy check to determine how much weight you need. It is very possible for two 230lb men to need different amounts of weight. When we outfit students here we use 7mil suits and guess 10% of your body weight. Some need more and some need less. I'd imagine your instructor will have extra weight but 18lbs sounds like plenty. I'm 210 and use 10lbs in a 3mil shorty and 18lbs in a 7mil full suit (both with an Al 80). If I use my tri-lam drysuit I need 28lbs.
As for the 65 vs the 80, again there are variables but I'd guess maybe 10 more minutes with the 80. You will probably be pretty shallow for most of your training dives.
Have fun and dive safe!
Joe

 

[Mike Veitch]

no offence but the 10% thing is absolutely the silliest thing i have ever heard. I am 170 and use 4lbs with a 7mm full suit with a jacket BCD ie no BPW stuff.
everyone is different and a proper post dive weight check is the best thing to do, when tank is less than 500psi then do your eye level check. That is the key, don't do it at the beginning of the dive but at the end. Do your first dive a bit overweighted, 18 pounds is plenty, then do weight check at end. Should be golden for your second dive

 

[The Kraken]

80 cubic feet of gas versus 65 cubic feet of gas . . . hmmmmm let me see.

If I put 80 gallons of gas in my SUV can I go further than I could if I put 65 gallons of gas in it?

Yes, I think so.

 

[MB]

The 10% guide is a holdover from days when people didn't know a better way to teach. Today there's really no reason this can't be taught a bit more systematically. Weight titration isn't rocket science, but an instructor really ought to know some strategies for estimating weight needs other than guesswork.

Consider the issues. Salt vs fresh; neoprene vs cotton t-shirt. Calm vs anxious. Rather than guess, ask your instructor to spend 4-5 minutes with you to experimentally establish your weight needs in the pool, using the setup that you'll use for OW dives. Then you'll only have one variable to add in rather than two or three. Weighting is so very important for new divers, its well worth spending a few minutes to work on rather than guessing.

Re: the cylinders - you're talking about 15 cubic feet of air difference (approximately). If you use approx 1/2 cubic foot of air per minute, and have 15 cf of air extra, you might be talking about 30 extra minutes of air. Now the complicating variables that affect your breathing pattern come in - you're comfort level in the water, whether you're properly weighted or trying to work off that 10% overweighting thing, depth, current, etcetcetc.

Wouldn't it be cool to learn first hand how that extra 15 cf of air affects your dive? If your instructor knows how to establish your breathing rate, ask him/her to show you. Write down your dive profile in your logbook. Compare you first 10 dives and watch how you improve your breathing. NOW, toss that extra 15 cubic feet of air into the mix and estimate how that extra air would translate into dive time for you.

Don't miss the chance to learn while you have an instructor. Diving is too cool!

 

[markfm]

As a fellow newbie, definitely don't get tense about weight, don't try to go immediately to 10 or 12 pounds unless that really works for you. It'll almost certainly drop over time, even your first couple of dives.
(Every once in a while, reading this board, you expect to see someone who says they dive with -4lb weight, forgetting what it's like to be new).
I'm 185 lb, did use 18lb with a 5 mil, fully expect I'll drop a couple next time I wear a wetsuit.
I did OW/drysuit certs together, went up to 40 pounds for my drysuit pool and first couple of open water dives, then dropped to 32 pounds. It's a mixture of body type and form/technique. I'll probably do a weight check next dives, see if I can do 28, but am absolutely not concerned with the number, just how it feels and whether I can do that last 15' ascent slowly.
"Plenty" is relative -- it takes practice to keep yourself tucked in, really dump all the air from your BCD as you ascend, which is what lets you cut your weight.
Have fun -- it's a good time
At least for me, I had to work at going up slooowly in the OW dives, which can be tough to do. PADI teaches the 1' per second, but at least some dive computers trigger a warning at 0.5' per second.

 

[Mike Veitch]

(Every once in a while, reading this board, you expect to see someone who says they dive with -4lb weight, some kind of oddball machismo).

Interesting statement my friend. Machismo? Certainly not. I have been working full time in the scuba industry (albeit in the tropics, but am sure that is probably where 80% if not more of diving is done? just a guess) for over 6 years. In that time i have seen and divemastered/guided thousands of people. Sorry to tell you but easily 80% of those people were overweighted. Its not theory, its fact. Have to get it off my chest cuz its just a massive pet peeve and am sure it is the same for most full time dm/guides all over the world. There is nothing worse than watching someone tell you they are weighted properly or ask for 6-8lbs more than they need and then watch them swim in the ol fins down vertical position kicking up a ton of crap or just simply trashing the reef with their fins. Everyday i swim up to people and ask them to add air to their BCD becuz of this, and i do mean EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Sure some of it has to do with nervousness from people who do 1 dive trip a year or are a new diver. I take this into account and treat these people accordingly. With these people it is usually pretty simple, give them a few pointers and tips and they are more than happy to learn from your experience. By the second or 3rd day i/we have had those people take off 2, 4, 10, even 18 pounds. Usually it just takes a calm and understanding dive guide to show/tell that person a few things. IE lets see if we can't get you to last a bit longer on your air, lets see if we can help you stop having to touch that inflator/deflator every 30 secs. etc

The problem diver is usually ol mister "i have been diving for more years than you've been alive sonny", or the " my instructor is Aquaman/superman/spiderman all in one bundle from so and so quarry in the middle of nowhere, you as a dive guide living out here in strong currents and lively seas for 365 days a year for the last 6 year don't know nothin!" Unfortunately, these people do exist and believe nothing in your experience and will listen to nothing you say, no matter what way you put it. Believe me it happens all the time to the detriment of coral reefs everywhere. There have been a ton of threads about this same issue all over the place on Scubaboard and as the sport gets more and more popular it will get worse before it ever gets better. Very sad statement but unfortunately true.


Mostly buoyancy has to do with comfort level and experience, it is something learned over time and no new diver is going to get it right the first time, it takes a minimum, and i mean a minimum 100 if not more dives. We all had to go through it and thats that, there were many a day when i was overweighted too.
MB wrote a great post and i give huge kudos to him for doing so.
Personally, i am lucky, i get to dive everyday so my bouyancy is very good. Is it perfect? No, but it is pretty damn close. SO are many other peoples. However, i have also seen people with 500+ dives whose buoyancy and weight problems are way worse than someone with 10 dives.
SUre some of it has to do with body type but not a lot. I am certainly not a skinny person, i've got me a nice little tire around the middle, check out my photo on the Show me your face SB'rs thread in the non diving related forum. When my 7mm was brand spanking new, i used 6 pounds, now i use 4. The camera is very close to neutral and my BC is a jacket so there is no hidden BPW issues here.

Sorry to say it but the whole weight issue is more to do with poor instruction than need. As MB wrote, if an instructor would take more time to do proper weighting checks with students then we wouldn't have these arguments on this board. Too many instructors/shops overweight their students for convenience and time related issues as opposed to figuring out what they really need. I know, i was one of them once upon a time....

Markfm, i am glad to see you say you will drop some weight the next time you go out, that is a good attitude and shows some hope opposed to your previous statement quoted above. Perhaps my reply has cleared up an issue or two for you and i invite you to come diving with me at any time. Lets see if we can't drop a few pounds off ya! You'll appreciate it, believe me.

 

[Mike Veitch]

Mark, Interesting edit to the original post, i think my reply addresses it anyway...

 

[markfm]

It was only intended to reflect someone who has only just completed my original OW dives. Sorry about the edit -- I didn't think anyone had a chance to read it yet, and I was trying to get the point across that perhaps people forget just how much difference there is between someone just doing their OW versus having been diving and working on things for a while. You absolutely did address it, that it takes dive time.
My instructor is a good egg, patient, but it really comes down to my own personal comfort level/technique, and that simply takes time underwater (with good people giving me hints).
I think my first pool day, wetsuit, I was like 22 or even 24 pounds. I went to 18 during my OW pool time, that was OK, though when the club has a pool day soon I'll probably nudge that down a couple.
Similar with drysuit -- started high, working to nudge it down. I need/want to work both trim and weighting, understand what I need to do, litle bits and pieces of things to poke at (as well as practicing normal skills, like reg replacement, mask clear,...)
I got lots of encouragement from my instructor and people at the shop. Time and practice, loosening up, finding my own groove will let me drop weight.
When I don't concentrate too hard on something is when it works out -- focusing on weight I tense up. If I just putter around, have a relaxed dive, that's when I get to see if I can drop a few pounds, at the end.

 

[MB]

...MB wrote a great post and i give huge kudos to him for doing so...As MB wrote, if an instructor would take more time to do proper weighting checks with students then we wouldn't have these arguments on this board.

Shhh... please don't let my wife find out that I know anything useful...