pressure gauge location

[oversea]

DIR and hose mounted gauges don't mix. You either dive this way or you don't. Some great explanations have been provided above but your undstanding of the system appears to be too incomplete to get it. So, either invest the time and money to learn how to dive and configure your gear DIR or just go do whatever you want. There simply is not an in-between compromise.

Sorry, but scootering is the only reason provided as to why on the left. The closest other reason was a closed manifold but was really a reference to which post it should be attached to, not routed. I guess the answer is because George says so.

 

[RTodd]

Sorry, but scootering is the only reason provided as to why on the left. The closest other reason was a closed manifold but was really a reference to which post it should be attached to, not routed. I guess the answer is because George says so.

Okay, lets get this off on the right foot - a bag of hammers could grasp these concepts. So, to summarize from above:

1) Gauges are on wrists for ease of viewing. SPG is rarely reviewed so it needs to be tucked out of the way. This is why people that have the ability to walk upright a full 100% of the time, don't put other gauges on their HP hose.
2) No d-ring on the right, the cannister goes there. Plus more streamlined being tucked in rather than hanging outside of your light.
3) Every hose on your doubles has a specific reason for the way it is routed. SPG has to be on the left post for manifold issues. Therefore, the most streamlined place for it is to drop it straight down to your left d-ring. All other hoses have their reasons for placement and routing too. Having the low pressure hoses cross behind your head helps you to hear leaks (minor bonus but no the reason for the routing). You will hear a HP hose leaking without it crossing behind you. Therefore, no need to do something convoluted and route it to the right side where it would take an enourmously long HP hose and add extra kinks to the worst hose you could have fail.
4) Team system, your buddy should know exactly where to look to check your gas. Everything should be the same. On a swimming together open water dive, you can easily just look over at your buddies gauge.
5) Every hose coming off the right side is breathable gas.
6) When scootering, you don't have to let off the trigger to check your gas.
7) Donating air, a convoluted HP hose on the right side would interefere with sharing air from the long hose - this is one is a huge problem and the most important one.

George never just says so. He has explained everything in excruciating detail. The content of his message 10 years ago is what really pissed everyone off. Now that the content has been so overwhelmingly proven to be correct, everyone likes to pretend it was just his way of conveying the message that caused all the strife.

As I said before, feel free to dive however you want. But, don't pretend that the answers you don't want to hear are just dogma so you can justify ignoring them. Just ignore them because your ideas are much better.

 

[headhunter]

Sorry, but scootering is the only reason provided as to why on the left. The closest other reason was a closed manifold but was really a reference to which post it should be attached to, not routed. I guess the answer is because George says so.

Don't forget this reason, which I believe speaks to the core of the DIR philosophy:

1. The idea that its a system emphasizing team execution: think of a small tactical team on a combat mission. Same concept - to provide best chance of survival for the entire team, every member is equipped the same in the same location. The (gas and equipment) we carry is not merely "ours" but also the team's. When you must respond in seconds to an emergency, you want to be able to locate the (data or equipment) you need without a whole lot of fumbling around, so everyone's (SPG) is in the same location.

This addresses the question of difficulty with deco bottles (there were other posts that restated this), the fact that computers and non-wrist mounted guages (except the SPG) are not DIR and that with DIR there is no right hip D-ring to clip to:

The gauge is cliped to the hip d-ring, with a little practice there are no problems clipping and un clippin g the gauge with one, two, or even three deco bottles.

The gauge on the right and house mount computer are far from DIR.

There is no right hip d-ring to clip the gauge to, and all instruments are worn on the wrist for easy viewing.

So, these are some other reasons for having the SPG clipped to your left D-Ring within the DIR philosophy.

Try to keep in mind that when considering the DIR philosophy of diving that it is a holistic system and that no one "piece of the puzzle" sits on its own apart from the others. All of the pieces need to fit together and are dependent on each other to make complete sense.

So, as soon as you change any part of what you do to something that is not DIR and use that as a reason that one piece of the system no longer seems to make as much sense, you are simply doing things in a completely different way. That's OK, but at that point a DIR proponent can no longer speak to the issue from a DIR perspective and have that make complete sense to you.

Of course, there are times when the reasoning works regardless of the diving philosophy you prefer. I think that, maybe, you were looking to see if this was one of those times. Keep in mind that if you think you might ever use a scooter, that this would be something that would be beneficial to you. As I understand it, one of the tenets of DIR is that you configure yourself in such a way that anything you do in the future would not change your basic configuration. This way, in an emergency, everything is where it has always been and you simply react on that basis when there may be no time to stop and give too much thought to where things are today.

Now let me be clear and offer a caveat. I am not properly trained in the DIR system although I plan to be in the near future. If any of you who are properly trained in DIR see something that I have misrepresented or something that is in error, please correct me.

Also, your best answers will obviously come from DIR instructors. We have many of them here on the board, but they don't see every thread. Off the top of my head, some of them are BCS, Mark Hall and MHK. Whenever I have asked questions of any of these or other DIR instructors (on the board or in person), I've been given sound reasoning in a very polite manner. These exchanges have been the main reason that I have made a decision to pursue this philosophy of diving.

I hope this helps.

Christian

 

[jonnythan]

Sorry, but scootering is the only reason provided as to why on the left. The closest other reason was a closed manifold but was really a reference to which post it should be attached to, not routed. I guess the answer is because George says so.

Why isn't that enough of a reason? One of the fundamental tenets of DIR is that you DO NOT CHANGE your configuration for anything, ever. You can add and remove components as fits the dive, but moving a fundamental, basic piece of gear like your SPG depending on whether you're scootering today or not is a fundamental violation of one of the principles of DIR.

 

[oversea]

Okay, lets get this off on the right foot - a bag of hammers could grasp these concepts. So, to summarize from above:

1) Gauges are on wrists for ease of viewing. SPG is rarely reviewed so it needs to be tucked out of the way. This is why people that have the ability to walk upright a full 100% of the time, don't put other gauges on their HP hose.
2) No d-ring on the right, the cannister goes there. Plus more streamlined being tucked in rather than hanging outside of your light.
3) Every hose on your doubles has a specific reason for the way it is routed. SPG has to be on the left post for manifold issues. Therefore, the most streamlined place for it is to drop it straight down to your left d-ring. All other hoses have their reasons for placement and routing too. Having the low pressure hoses cross behind your head helps you to hear leaks (minor bonus but no the reason for the routing). You will hear a HP hose leaking without it crossing behind you. Therefore, no need to do something convoluted and route it to the right side where it would take an enourmously long HP hose and add extra kinks to the worst hose you could have fail.
4) Team system, your buddy should know exactly where to look to check your gas. Everything should be the same. On a swimming together open water dive, you can easily just look over at your buddies gauge.
5) Every hose coming off the right side is breathable gas.
6) When scootering, you don't have to let off the trigger to check your gas.
7) Donating air, a convoluted HP hose on the right side would interefere with sharing air from the long hose - this is one is a huge problem and the most important one.

George never just says so. He has explained everything in excruciating detail. The content of his message 10 years ago is what really pissed everyone off. Now that the content has been so overwhelmingly proven to be correct, everyone likes to pretend it was just his way of conveying the message that caused all the strife.

As I said before, feel free to dive however you want. But, don't pretend that the answers you don't want to hear are just dogma so you can justify ignoring them. Just ignore them because your ideas are much better.

See, the problem stems from assumptions. I do not dive a long hose. I tried it and did not like it. I may consider trying it once again when I am comfortable with my gear. I do have a canister however it is mounted to my plate, not my belt. The guys I dive with have similar rigs but not the same and although looks to be fun, do not use or need a scooter. My second post told you I was not DIR nor trying to be. I simply look at some things you do and adapt what interests me. For instance, bp/w. Best swap I ever made. I have dove both a comfort harness and one piece and totally agree that the one piece is more secure and less problematic. My backup is bungeed and has the shorter 20" or 22" hose for neatness in routing and streamlining. So, you see where I am coming from. So not one can solidly justify why the gauge can't be on the right (for safety reasons and functionality) other than DIR does not do it that way. This question was posted here because I can usually get some good reasoning for doing things a certain way.

 

[pants!]

So not one can solidly justify why the gauge can't be on the right (for safety reasons and functionality) other than DIR does not do it that way.

Correct. SPG on the right does not fit into the DIR system for a variety of stated reasons, however it may fit into your system just fine.

 

[Doppler]

...This question was posted here because I can usually get some good reasoning for doing things a certain way.

You posted your question in this forum so you should not be surprised at the feedback you're getting here. And don't for one minute think that I'm qualified to answer from a DIR perspective... look at my signature...

In any event, the reasons for routing one's SPG hose from the left post down the left side of the body and clipping it to the left hip have essentially been stated... perhaps not empatically enough for you to buy it, but clear enough surely. Someone stated that the spg is not looked at very often, which is true since it's mearly to confirm the validity of your gas plan and that's held in your head. There are a couple of other reasons for it to be on the left... as long as your primary is on the right and assuming you are diving doubles with an isolation manifold.

Sometimes, isolators get shut by accident and -- should your pre-dive checks be sloppy and you don't catch it on the surface -- it's going to be apparant after a few minutes at depth because your gas levels will not be dropping... you'll be off your plan. Secondly, there is a possibility that your left post valve can be shut off accidently during a dive... rubbing against an ascent line for example. Once again, having the SPG on that post... the only post that can be turned off in this manner... is beneficial.

And finally, there is convention. Divers have been using doubles for many years and when the rig that most of us use was developed -- by cave divers like Main and Flannigan -- they wore the spg on the left... we also rans followed suit. Now it's a convention among all technical divers... not just one group. So if you hope to ever dive in unison with folks from other areas and mindsets, conforming to what is a norm will help smooth the transition.

 

[Dan Gibson]

If you put the gauge off the right post and that is also where your primary reg is, then you don't really know for sure the isolator is closed. Mind you, if you check your SPG the gas is going at twice the rate it typically would, that might clue one into checking to see if the isolator is in fact closed. However, a faster than normal consumption rate does not translate into a closed isolator 100% of the time, but an SPG that doesn't move always means the isolator is closed unless one has discovered a way to breath gas back into the tanks

I understand that it is telling me the isolator is closed but still do not see the relationship between left and right.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Steve,

I have never thought this one totally through (the math that is) since I was taught to mix and analyze a certain way. I always mix (PP or CB) on the right post and analyze there as well.

Assuming someone really screwed this up as well as the predive checks, is it not possible to fill and analyze on differing posts (really dumb idea) and then on a dive open the isolator and get a hypoxic mix? I have seen idoits filling tanks at shops before, so I'm guessing it is entirely possible. Obviously not a good thing if at depth.

I was taught if you check the isolator during a dive and hear a woosh, the dive is done and you really ought to think about getting on the buddies gas.

Dan

edit: oops meant to say hyperoxic.

You posted your question in this forum so you should not be surprised at the feedback you're getting here. And don't for one minute think that I'm qualified to answer from a DIR perspective... look at my signature...

In any event, the reasons for routing one's SPG hose from the left post down the left side of the body and clipping it to the left hip have essentially been stated... perhaps not empatically enough for you to buy it, but clear enough surely. Someone stated that the spg is not looked at very often, which is true since it's mearly to confirm the validity of your gas plan and that's held in your head. There are a couple of other reasons for it to be on the left... as long as your primary is on the right and assuming you are diving doubles with an isolation manifold.

Sometimes, isolators get shut by accident and -- should your pre-dive checks be sloppy and you don't catch it on the surface -- it's going to be apparant after a few minutes at depth because your gas levels will not be dropping... you'll be off your plan. Secondly, there is a possibility that your left post valve can be shut off accidently during a dive... rubbing against an ascent line for example. Once again, having the SPG on that post... the only post that can be turned off in this manner... is beneficial.

And finally, there is convention. Divers have been using doubles for many years and when the rig that most of us use was developed -- by cave divers like Main and Flannigan -- they wore the spg on the left... we also rans followed suit. Now it's a convention among all technical divers... not just one group. So if you hope to ever dive in unison with folks from other areas and mindsets, conforming to what is a norm will help smooth the transition.

 

[salty]

This question was posted here because I can usually get some good reasoning for doing things a certain way.

You have gotten plenty of reasons why we run the spg on the left hand side, stop arguing that it dosent apply to you or that your configuration is different from ours so our reasons dont stand up. We told you, take it or leave it!