Pre-DM course questions to assess a dive shop

[seminomadic]

Hello-
I've found a place that I'd like to do the DM course in several months. I know the price, the general diving conditions of the area, and since I dived with the outfit, I know that the DM's and those who'll be teaching me seem pretty cool.

They take the internship-approach (vs. 'just teach you the DM material' method) where you're doing labor, lugging tanks etc., but that's fine by me because I'd rather do that and get months of diving experience under my belt shadowing a pro rather than just be taught material in 2-3 weeks and do the minimum number of dives necessary to pass.

If you're an experience DM, I'd like to know what questions I should ask them in advance before investing myself fully- questions that I wouldn't think to ask now since I don't have the experience. What questions do you wish you, now that you have the 20/20 hindsight, would have asked before you chose the the outfit where you did your DM course?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

It might help to know what time of the year is best for instructional opportunities, so you don't get stuck assisting classes made up of DM candidates and fake students.

 

[vjanelle]

Hello-
They take the internship-approach (vs. 'just teach you the DM material' method) where you're doing labor, lugging tanks etc., but that's fine by me because I'd rather do that and get months of diving experience under my belt shadowing a pro rather than just be taught material in 2-3 weeks and do the minimum number of dives necessary to pass.

Make sure this isn't an outfit where they'll expect you to work for free doing this, or without a permit if applicable if you are spreading it out over 6+ weeks. You can get into serious trouble with local governments if you're not a citizen, or with things like the workers compensation board in north america (if you're injured "working", you won't be covered). Heard some horror stories about places expecting you to work for free selling gear, etc.

Lugging tanks/etc is expected as a *working* divemaster or staff, but you're not insured, and you're not covered where applicable. Do so at your own risk, and take any DM course that 'requires' with a grain of salt. That being said helping out with equipment usually can get you some side benefits with the staff. Just don't hurt yourself.

 

[Kingpatzer]

If they expect you to "work," are you insured for against both any injuries you might sustain and against any personal liability you might incur functioning in that position? Don't take a verbal "yes," for an answer here. You want the paperwork.

If they won't give it to you, or are honest and admit you won't be so insured, go elsewhere. It is absolutely not in your interest to expose yourself to such risks for a scuba course. I don't know what the legal climate is over there, but you need to know before you sign up.

 

[Interceptor121]

The internship option is well designed and if you go throught it properly and you have a good instructor as well as a busy dive centre it won't take you more than 4-6 weeks maximum.
Longer than that and making you carry out tasks for which you are not insured is out of order.
Your instructors should be with you at all times supervising your work
there are many outfits that make people work for free and call that a DM internship, be careful not to get into that trap

 

[scubadiver888]

I am currently enrolled in a DM course but I can tell you what I have found so far that I hadn't thought to ask about:

- Do you use your own gear or does the shop provide gear for you?

This is important because I found I had to change my gear to match the gear students would be using. Things like BP/W or even integrated weights could be an issue. I had to start wearing a weight belt again in order to demonstrate removing and putting it back on in the water.

- What are the legal ramifications of this program?

Like everyone has been mentioning, are you covered if you or someone else gets injured? Get things in writing. This will avoid misunderstandings and prevents a shop from changing their mind if things go bad.

- What is included? What will I have to pay for in order to complete the course?

Sometimes they will give you a good price then charge you for extras. If they rent a pool and charge $5 for people to use it, do you have to pay the $5? If you need to go to a training facility and the facility charges, do you have to pay for that as well? My shop gives me free air when part of the program and no charge for pool time but I do have to pay for training facilities not owned by the shop.

- When is high season? How many Open Water students do you have scheduled for the next two training sessions? How many Discover Scuba Diving sessions will you typically do during my training?

As someone else pointed out, I have had audited an Open Water class with only 1 student. Four DMs and one student. Fortunately, I'm in no rush and will have another chance to audit classes in April/May but one guy will be going to the Caribbean to work in May and that one student class will be his only experience.

Additionally, you want to find out about how many DSD classes. There are a few things you can teach as a DM. One is Discover Local Diving and the other is DSD. For DLD, the divers are certified and therefore there are very little requirements for you to handle that. For DSD, you can do the pool sessions but you have to have audited and assisted a few DSD sessions first. If the shop does 2 DSDs during the time you are in training then you will not qualify to handle DSD for the shop. If they have a DSD class every day then you should be able to start making money before getting to Instructor level.

- Will you be officially training on the equipment in the shop?

As a DM I help out with tank fills. I have been given an informal training on the equipment at the shop. If I went to another shop they won't recognize that I've been doing tank fills and I might not actually know how to do it with their equipment. I am DEFINITELY not qualified to do Nitrox at our shop. The shop does partial blending (fill the tank with 100% oxygen then top up with air). I have to be officially trained to handle 100% oxygen so there is no way I can do Nitrox. That government qualification plus the blender training are extra cost.

- Who will be involved in my training?

The correct answer should be one person who is qualified to certify you. You don't want to have a bunch of people having you 'intern' for them. This essentially equates to slave labour. Everything should be going through the person certifying you. This is just good management. The person training you can have you loaned out to another instructor but they need to be aware of everything you are doing. Case in point, I was loaned out to an OWSI conducting DSD so I could add that to my qualifications. Another DM candidate was asked if they could participate in a Rescue Course (as a victim). They said no and suffered no ramifications.

I have seen situations were everyone at the shop was using a DMC. The person training them had no idea. The DMC was always tired.

P.S.

- Do they point out that most shops will hire instructors rather a DM. In the areas I dive, all 'DMs' are really instructors. The only person I've heard of who is a paid DM is also a licensed captain and has his own boat (so he is really getting paid to be a captain and not a DM).

 

[vjanelle]

The correct answer should be one person who is qualified to certify you. You don't want to have a bunch of people having you 'intern' for them. This essentially equates to slave labour. Everything should be going through the person certifying you. This is just good management. The person training you can have you loaned out to another instructor but they need to be aware of everything you are doing. Case in point, I was loaned out to an OWSI conducting DSD so I could add that to my qualifications. Another DM candidate was asked if they could participate in a Rescue Course (as a victim). They said no and suffered no ramifications.

- Do they point out that most shops will hire instructors rather a DM. In the areas I dive, all 'DMs' are really instructors. The only person I've heard of who is a paid DM is also a licensed captain and has his own boat (so he is really getting paid to be a captain and not a DM).

Agreed. You should do your OW internships with multiple instructors though to get a feel for different instructor styles and how they handle things. They'll also give you different feedback.

Part of the DM books basically says that "as a dm, you're not going to get hired specifically on that skill alone unless you have some sort of skillset that'll be useful during your surface intervals" and in fact most of the time you won't be in the water unless someone specifically requests your assistance, or you're leading a dive.

 

[616fun]

A learning point for me was understanding how well organzied the shop is about scheduling their DMs/Instructors for classes. If it's adhoc I would avoid it like the plague. Most people aren't doing DM or Instructor jobs as a main profession. If the shop expects you to drop everything when they need you it's likely not a good fit.

I speak from experience. Be sure you take time to understand how they schedule you.

Also - take a close look at how they manage liability waivers. I've found that shops may or may not keep a 'professional roster' and then provide the liability waiver covering all professionals of that shop. If the shop has individual instructors only listed on the liability waivers stay away. That waiver would not cover anyone other than those listed in a court of law.

 

[TMHeimer]

I know this is a little off topic, but I've noticed some wide variations in DM courses described on SB. Some shops do the swim tests in salt water, some in pools, etc. Here, we just touched on Discover Snorkeling (not that there's much to it) because 99% of the time it's too cold to snorkel without exposure suit-but one may wind up in a warm location, no? We have an excellent shop and a thorough instructor. They expect higher than "passing standards" on some things--which is good. But, I assume other shops don't. How does PADI view these differences? It must be nice to be in the many locations where there is more than one shop for 100 miles to choose from.

 

[vjanelle]

PADI defines "confined water" as any body of water that's confined. Pools or an ocean area that's enclosed/marked off with a reasonable depth counts as well(basically an area where the students won't have to fight currents while dealing with buoyancy).

Your shop can expect higher passing standards but if you're able to complete it to padi's standards, they can't withold things from you... For example doing every single skill demonstration quality is a good thing to do if you're working towards your IDC but if you can't do a solo no mask swim demo quality, they can't withold it from you. If they help you get there, then all the power to them.