Poseidon 1st stage creep

[Rimp]

Hi. I have a poseidon first and second stage (primary), and a Beauchat octopus. I had them serviced about a month ago, and finally took them out a couple weeks ago. I noticed problems with freeflow from both regs, but the primary didn't concern me since it was in my mouth the whole time. The octopus freeflow was harshly annoying though.

I took the regs back to the shop and the guy hooked them up and said they were fine. He then sold me a rubber octopus holder clip saying this should fix the problem of freeflow.

I took the gear out today, and while the freeflow from the octopus stopped, it was still bubbling a little. wasting air.

I pulled it out of that plastic holder and filled it with water, then put it back in the holder and that stopped the bubbles.

After that dive, while swimming back to the shore, i noticed my air was still dropping even though i was using my snorkel. The primary reg had a leak as well. By the time i got to shore the air in my tank was gone.

When i connected my second tank for the next dive, i could hear air escaping from the primary reg, and i couldnt stop it. The purge from the reg seems really labored and doesnt shutoff completely.

Does all this sound like the first stage is leaking? (creeping).

I will take it back to the shop this week, but just want to get some opinions on what the problem might be.

Thanks.

 

[scubafanatic]

Hi Rimp,
I'm not a reg tech, but do use Poseidon Jetstreams........the Jetstream 2nd stage will start to freeflow at tank pressures below about 300 psi, so perhaps that's why your primary 'leaked' on the surface swim back?
I'd recommend against using a non-Poseidon 2nd stage on your Poseidon 1st stage......Poseidon's have a different design from most regs ( it's a long story ) but Poseidon 2nd stage hoses include a over-pressure-relief valve, which relieves hose pressure in the event of a 1st stage failure, your Beauchat octo doesn't have this special valve, thus you risk a LP hose rupture and a catastrophic air supply loss.
There's no effective way to diagnose your problems over the internet..........could be lots of different causes......I took one of mine to the shop a couple weeks ago with a very minor freeflow problem, it was 'fixed' with a few turns of a well placed screwdriver, they didn't even charge me, it was so trivial.

Karl

 

[rescuediver009]

The reason that the octo is freeflowing is because it is not meant to be used with the poseidon. The poseidons ip will increase as the tank pressure decreases and the octo will eventually freeflow. The only solution is to incredibly detune the octo, or to buy a poseidon one.
Those scumballs are crap. The are supposed to reduce the freeflow bu only cause grief.

 

[bottomrunner]

hi
the jet stream is a upstream reg
meaning that the perssure builds up in the second stage and then locks in. that is why you hear air flowing when you turn your tank on.
but when you have a increase in intermediate pressure
there is no where for the extra air to go, that is why poseidon has a relief valve built into the hose.
however most other second stages are downstream.
the air goes into the hoses and builds up to the set intremediate pressure.
in the second stage there is a rubber seat that blocks the end of the hose. with a spring behind it
when the pressure increases the spring cannot hold the extra air and lets it slip by freeflow
sounds like your second stages needs to be tightined
if your jet stream is leaking then it is a second stage problem
because overpressure leaks from hose
i would suggest that you check intermediate pressure with a gauge on inflator hose
poseidon should lock in around 169 psi., if it creeps up from there then it is first stage.
beauchat works around 140 psi. if your octo is not addjusted to handle the extra pressure the air will always freeflow. that may result in a cycle problem from one second stage to the other
but as far as mixing and matching, no problem
i have a oden primary and a sherwood octo on one first stage
and the other is a mares primary and a cyclone octo.
once they were tuned proprely i had no problems
hope this helps

 

[rescuediver009]

that is why poseidon has a relief valve built into the hose.
however most other second stages are downstream.

I believe that the relief valve is in the end of the second stage Not that it makes a difference in how it works as you have mentioned.

but as far as mixing and matching, no problem
i have a oden primary and a sherwood octo on one first stage

I am sure that when you breathe on the octo that you will find it extremely difficult as the detuning has to accomodate for a 40 psi difference in ip. And that is when the tank is full.

 

[nyresq]

I believe that the relief valve is in the end of the second stage Not that it makes a difference in how it works as you have mentioned.

I am sure that when you breathe on the octo that you will find it extremely difficult as the detuning has to accomodate for a 40 psi difference in ip. And that is when the tank is full.

The newer poseidons (not the Xstreams) have two relief valves, one in the first stage body (thats what the little plug in the bottom is) and a second relief valve in the hose connection to the second stage (this is the same as the Xstreams), and the beuchat will open up and blow off pressure long before the relief valve starts to burp.

If your poseidons are moving 40 psi from a full to an empty tank, then they are out of adjustment. for the jetstreams (odin) the reccomended IP is 123 psi. the new poseidon first stages are a balanced design and will not move that much; less then 5 psi if they are adjusted correctly. The cyklons are normally set higher (150psi) but are not the same design as the odins, they are a common downstream design and will blow off pressure if it gets too high. therefore there is no relief valve in the hose on a cyklon.

if your first stage is set by an experienced poseidon tech (hard to find a truly experienced one) they should hold a steady IP with minimal creep. 40 psi is far from normal. 40 psi is a high pressure seat starting to go. get it changed before it lets go at depth.
with a properly adjusted first stage your beuchat second can be set to a comfortable cracking pressure to stop the leaks but be useful at depth. There is no problem mixing other brands with poseidon regs

 

[Zaphod]

Using your Beauchat octo shouldn't be a problem. While it may not have the special pressure-relief hose of your Poseidon second stages, it does have a downstream design which will relieve excess IP. You can, and it sounds like you have, gotten your octo to work properly with the Poseidon first.

The IP of a Poseidon first with anything except a Cyklon second is in the same range as every other mainstream regulator.

Also, I don't know where the idea came from that Poseidons were not balanced first stages. Sure, Poseidon makes a design that is unbalanced, but the VAST majority of their first stages are balanced. Granted, they're not the standard "cookie cutter" designs and don't look like anything else internally, but the net effect is exactly the same.

Now, to your problem. Assuming your tech knows how to check the IP and has set it properly, it sounds like the octo was tuned too lightly. Your problem may be fixed. Your second stage also has an adjustment problem, I believe. Fortunately, you can fix it yourself if you're so inclined. The pilot valve on the end of the valve body is VERY sensitive. If the tip of the valve is resting even slightly against the diaphragm, it will freeflow, but still lockup eventually. This will also cause the purge to be a little sluggish. The easiest way to check it is to remove the cover off of the diaphragm (four screws) and pull out the diaphragm. Pressurize. If the freeflow stops , then you'll need to adjust the length of the valve. Remove the valve body from the regulator (unscrew the hose and push out all of the brass), loosen the small hex screw, then turn the long part of the valve clockwise (1/8 turn - it doesn't take much) while holding the larger piece. Tighten the hex nut and put it all back together.

When overhauling this reg, this tuning is actually an iterative process. Perhaps your tech just didn't iterate it enough times. It can also be hard to catch in a noisy shop environment, because everything else still seems to work fine.

 

[rescuediver009]

If your poseidons are moving 40 psi from a full to an empty tank, then they are out of adjustment. for the jetstreams (odin) the reccomended IP is 123 psi. the new poseidon first stages are a balanced design and will not move that much; less then 5 psi if they are adjusted correctly. The cyklons are normally set higher (150psi) but are not the same design as the odins, they are a common downstream design and will blow off pressure if it gets too high. therefore there is no relief valve in the hose on a cyklon.

Hmmm... can't say that I agree with ya there fella. I know that 5psi is way too little, but I am not sure 100% about the actual spec on how much it does move. I moves way more than 5 psi from a full tank to an empty one. That is why they freeflow as they are just turned on. I know enough that 5psi is not enough to go from fully shut to fully freeflowing. That is why Poseidon recommends that you set it up at I believe 300 psi supply pressure. As this is when the ip will be highest.

Correct me if I am wrong. Are you a Poseidon tech???????

 

[Zaphod]

Again, most Poseidon first stages are balanced. They don't look like your typical balanced first stage, but they are balanced. That said, the drop from a supply pressure of 3000 psi to 500 psi (or so) should be in the 15 psi range. That doesn't necessarily mean the regulator is unbalanced. In fact, check out the tuning procedure that you should have learned for an Apeks. I think everybody agrees that the Apeks design is balanced, right. Well, the procedure essentially calls for a 15 psi difference between supply pressures of 500 psi and 3000 psi. They're not perfectly balanced against tank pressure...

The fact that the Poseidon Jetstream/Odin freeflows when you first turn it on has little to do with what you're describing. The Odin is a very unique design that uses an inflatable balloon (looks like a condom) as the valve, but it allows a very small amount of air through to the pilot valve. The fact that it is a small percentage of the IP contributes greatly to the Odin's sensitivity. When the pilot valve is opened, there's a small pressure drop around the balloon (below the IP), the balloon deflates slightly and the valve is opened. With the pilot valve closed, the pressure around the balloon raises slightly (back to the IP) and the balloon closes the valve fully. You really need to see it in action or with a diagram to fully get it, I suppose.

The problem during turn-on is that we've all been trained to open the valve slowly and until the second stage sees the vast majority of it's specified IP, there's not enough backpressure coming from the pilot valve to proprely inflate the balloon and close the valve - hence a freeflow. Slamming the tank valve open is about the only way to really avoid the problem.

Oh yeah, I'm a Poseidon tech....

Hmmm... can't say that I agree with ya there fella. I know that 5psi is way too little, but I am not sure 100% about the actual spec on how much it does move. I moves way more than 5 psi from a full tank to an empty one. That is why they freeflow as they are just turned on. I know enough that 5psi is not enough to go from fully shut to fully freeflowing. That is why Poseidon recommends that you set it up at I believe 300 psi supply pressure. As this is when the ip will be highest.

Correct me if I am wrong. Are you a Poseidon tech???????