Pony Bottle / Spare Air

[Jonnyspecial]

muddiver,

I don't think it is an issue of you not buying my logic, rather one of your inability to understand it.

The Spare Air has an relatively easy screw on/off valve, meaning it is easy to prepare it for airline travel, as far as securty and airline rules are concerned.

The valve is physically separate from the tank.
[As I wrote, packing it all in a ziploc/clear waterproof pouch with a short explanatory note should cover all the angles.]
The tank is therefore empty, and so, clearly unpressurized.
The tank's interior can be visually inspected if required.

On arrival, one reattaches the valve, uses the adapter to refill the SA from a larger tank, and you're off.

A pony bottle, at least any that I've seen used, have the valve attached and aside from [at least here in Japan, 1x/3 years inspection for aluminium and 1x/5 years for steel] the valves are not removed, and require more than a screwing on/off...

If I am incorrect in my understanding of pony bottles' valves, I'm sure you will correct me.

But, in the meantime, I'm beginning to worry about the Divemaster pool - between you and mattboy, it seems a little diluted at the moment.

Finally, Bodensee, not every diver has a octopus to hand off [I've seen some on dive trips], and these morons are usually the ones who wouldn't have bothered to learn/remember emergency breathing techniques as well, I fear.

 

[idocsteve]

A pony bottle, at least any that I've seen used, have the valve attached and aside from [at least here in Japan, 1x/3 years inspection for aluminium and 1x/5 years for steel] the valves are not removed, and require more than a screwing on/off...

I travel with a 19 cf pony bottle which uses it's separate regulator and hose, as opposed to a spare air that has a self contained regulator in it's twist on cap.

The valve on the pony screws off without any tools, although if it's been tightened too much it sometimes needs a tap with a rubber mallet or the side of a closed fist to knock it loose. I remove the valve for travel, screw it back on again at my destination and hand it to the shop for a fill before jumping on the dive boat.

If it needs a visual inspection they can do it right at the time of the fill in most cases.

Because a spare air can be filled from a regular size tank using the included refill adapter, you don't "need" to have it inspected on a regular basis but of course you "should" for your own safety.

 

[sdiver68]

I do not agree that "any extra gas is better than none." The very fact that someone is concerned enough about running out of air unexpectedly to spend hundreds on this device, thinking it's a solution, is an indication that the diver needs to better understand OOA situations and safe diving practices.

Analogous to arguing motorcycle riders don't need full face helmets, and therefore I respectively disagree. And yes I am a new diver but have as much experience in recreational risk management as anyone here. Plus, I'm sure I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before

 

[halocline]

Analogous to arguing motorcycle riders don't need full face helmets, and therefore I respectively disagree. And yes I am a new diver but have as much experience in recreational risk management as anyone here. Plus, I'm sure I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before

Actually, the analogy with a motorcycle helmet is not bad, but I think you're not describing it accurately. A spare air would be like wearing a bicycle helmet while riding a motorcycle, using the argument that "any helmet is better than none." IOW, you're trying to solve a safety problem with an inadequate piece of gear.

But, the analogy only goes so far. In the motorcycle case, there are proven statistics that demonstrate the use of approved helmets increases safety. In scuba diving, there are no statistics whatsoever that indicate that the use of spare air increases safety. There's not even any logic, just a superficial "what if" speculation that IF you ran out of air, and IF your buddy wasn't around, and IF you were too deep to just swim to the surface, then you could get a few breaths out of one to aid in your immediate and unplanned ascent.

The problem is, all those "ifs" point to larger concerns of diver behavior and lack of understanding. The only real way to solve those is to address the behavior.

 

[idocsteve]

There's not even any logic, just a superficial "what if" speculation that IF you ran out of air, and IF your buddy wasn't around, and IF you were too deep to just swim to the surface, then you could get a few breaths out of one to aid in your immediate and unplanned ascent.

Sounds logical to me, and quite probable.

I've read numerous accounts of divers running low on gas and their buddies aren't right next to them, and these things happen at * gasp * some amount of depth where you can't "just swim to the surface" (whatever that means).

Nothing even close to a "what if" scenario that is very unlikely to ever happen.

 

[sdiver68]

But, the analogy only goes so far. In the motorcycle case, there are proven statistics that demonstrate the use of approved helmets increases safety. In scuba diving, there are no statistics whatsoever that indicate that the use of spare air increases safety. There's not even any logic, just a superficial "what if" speculation that IF you ran out of air, and IF your buddy wasn't around, and IF you were too deep to just swim to the surface, then you could get a few breaths out of one to aid in your immediate and unplanned ascent.

The problem is, all those "ifs" point to larger concerns of diver behavior and lack of understanding. The only real way to solve those is to address the behavior.

Actually I said "full face motorcycle" helmet. AFAIK, there are statistics helmet riding versus riding without a helmet but not for full face versus other types. Or I could dig 1 layer deeper and say Top of the Line racing helmets (Arai/Shoei) versus other types. And in each case the best helmet you can buy is no substitute for proper training, experience, leathers, boots, gloves, etc....Anecdotally, I can say my full face helmet saved my face from major reconstructive surgery at least 3 times and my life at least once.

Anyway back to diving, I see logic in a few extra breaths, others do not. Anecdotally, there are numerous accounts of divers who used Spare Air to assist in an OOA situation. I could design a randomized study where I surprise turn the gas off at 70ft in typical dive situations with typical divers to see who fares better, the group with Spare Air or the control group without. Although obviously just a thought experiment, I know I'd personally rather not be in the control group.

I feel it's a personal choice where neither side of this issue should be critical of the other as long as the device is not used as a crutch to avoid proper training and experience.

 

[idocsteve]

I could design a randomized study where I surprise turn the gas off at 70ft in typical dive situations with typical divers to see who fares better, the group with Spare Air or the control group without. Although obviously just a thought experiment, I know I'd personally rather not be in the control group.

I wannabe in sdiver68's group!

 

[halocline]

Sounds logical to me, and quite probable.

Well, there you go. You proved my point exactly, if you think it's "quite probable" that you might run out of air with no buddy around and too deep to swim to the surface with no air, then you have very serious safety problems in the way you dive. Gas management mean anything to you? How about responsible buddy behavior?

No offense, but I'm really tired of this argument. Go ahead, use whatever dive gear you want for whatever reasons you think are valid.

 

[idocsteve]

Well, there you go. You proved my point exactly, if you think it's "quite probable" that you might run out of air with no buddy around and too deep to swim to the surface with no air, then you have very serious safety problems in the way you dive. Gas management mean anything to you? How about responsible buddy behavior?

I wasn't referring to myself specifically. I was referring to the probability of it happening in the scuba diving community as a whole.

You can be the best buddy in the world but that doesn't mean you predict what the person who is supposed to be swimming right next to you is going to do.

As far as low gas situations...things happen even with the best of planning.

Go ahead, use whatever dive gear you want for whatever reasons you think are valid.

Gee thanks matt!

 

[Chris12day]

Well, I have received my 19 cf pony bottle and set up.

I am not afraid of running out of air. I have never been close to an OOA situation. in my very limited dive life (67 to date). But I have seen it happen to others....My concern is others...my insta-buddy. Like most people who dive, I need to wake up on Monday morning and go to work to support my family. If I carrier an extra bottle of air...then it goes with the rest of my insurance..

1. DAN
2. Buddy Check
3. Dive Brief
4. Dive only with my own and maintained equipment (anywhere in the world).
5. Training...OW, AOW, Nitrox, CPR....next is rescue diver
6. Staying in physical condition

Safe diving