Pony bottle assisted snorkeling/diving

[MichiganScott]

I do not think people are being rude here.., do not confuse directness with rudeness. Going with the old saying "You can't suck and blow at the same time" you are either snorkelling or diving, but not both. My interpretation is that is what those opposed are trying to say.

I guess if looking for solid advice from people here, lets be a little more specific. What do you want the pony bottle for??

Is it for safety so that you can extend your breath hold time on the bottom by not needing breath hold time for ascent and when you need to breathe, pop the reg in and do a controlled ascent at the proper rate and avoid the risk of shallow water black-out?

Or are you looking at extending dive time..., deep breath on the surface, swim down ..., swim around pop the reg in take a couple deep breaths and then hold your breath again to extend your bottom time?

Two very real possibilites, two very different scenario's. What are you looking for with a pony bottle? That is the question. Well, that and "To be or not to be..."

Excelent point/question!

 

[Lims]

IMO, if you approach it in this manner, more like a SCUBA dive, less like a free dive, by maintaining a safe ascent rate, doing a safety stop and spending a reasonable time on the surface before free diving again then it takes some of the risk out. Thanks for the clarifications.

safety stops? assending from 6 to 10 meters? really?

 

[Cave Diver]

safety stops? assending from 6 to 10 meters? really?

It all depends on what level of risk you're willing to assume. If you read the article I posted previously (quoted below) and you're comfortable with doing that, it's your decision.

A lot of factors will play into the degree of danger present from this, including the number of ascents/descents you do in a given time, the length you're on the bottom, your ascent rate, whether you're properly hydrated, tired and your own unique physiology.

Why we Don't bounce dive after diving in the WKPP By George Irvine


Guys read this for once. WHY WE DO NOT BOUNCE DIVE AFTER DIVING IN THE WKPP It is ok to offgas from the tissues into the blood stream in bubble form in the later steps of decompression as it is a more efficient, faster way of getting rid of the remaining gas ( by reduced pressure ) than by elevated oxygen alone ( which starts taking exponentially more time with greater risk) . However, this depends on having a good lung filter and no shunts. All of you have been PFO tested if you are diving with us. The correct way to ascend from the last stop is one foot per minute for the bigger dives.

The greatest potential for offgassing in bubble form is when the pressure is totally removed back to one ATA out of the water. Now you get a real shower of bubbles , relative to what was happening in the water. A good , clean deco with the foot per minute ascent reduces this dramatically . In MOST people, the greatest bubbling occurs out of the water and continues for up to four hours, not even peaking for a couple of hours. In a well vascularized, fit person like me, it is over with in 30 minutes. Don't bet on that with most of you. In ALL people, the bubbles continue to grow in size after the pressure is off. They accumulate like gas into themselves from the surrounding blood or tissues ( if there are bubbles in the tissues or injury sites ) and they grow bigger. This is why you feel pain later rather than earlier if the bubbles are in joints or tissues - they get bigger before they begin to shrink. This is why what starts out as micro bubbles can get by the lungs and grow and get lodged downstream, and you get neurological symptoms later.
Now here is the important part. If you understand everything I have said above, then you know that bouncing to 20 feet or whatever to pick up a bottle and immediately returning to the surface is the like giving yourself a home-made PFO: the bubbles in the venous side compress enough to get past the lungs and then will reexpand on the arterial side and lodge in the worst places , the spine and brain blood supplies. You do not want this. If you dive after dive, stay down and let everything reset. Get the bubbles all compressed, and then deco out and ascend accordingly. I do not want support divers diving support within four hours of doing a real dive or deep support. This works out fine, since we have support activities lasting up to 18 to 24 hours and need to rotate everyone. Let me assure you that we have found this out the hard way in the past. Parker used to get hot as hell when it would happen. In those days we had "volunteers", and they would all get bent diving to 20 feet to pick up bottles. We have also seen some severe cases of this where dives were done away from the project with no support, and the players went back for bottles later and got hammered. Don't do it. Also, obviously, do not freedive after a dive. When you want to freedive, do that first and then go scuba diving. Any questions from WKPP guys?

Keep in mind, diving physiology is sometimes more art than science. There are people that dive recklessly and outside the recommended NDL's and guidelines all the time with no ill consequences. On the other hand, there have been reported incidents of DCS in instructors performing CESA's with a class and "undeserved hits" of people that seemingly did everything right.

You may never have a problem. You should just be aware that the potential is there and dive accordingly.

 

[scallop man]

hiya,

I'm very interested in this topic as I've done something similar for over 12 years in fresh water rivers using a hookah (clean air diaphram system). All shallow stuff, max 6m worst scenario. Bounce dives as you would call it to the river bed. I also enjoy snorkelling in the sea too. I got my BSAC in the 80's and have always had a 'toe in the water' at some stage.

There seems to be a split of opinion that you can use air for your shallow water snorkelling. Can I contribute please; assuming you are just popping down to a few metres and never getting anywhere near 9m and beyond. It is also assumed that the 'snorkeller' is a trained diver and knows the fundamentals and science of diving.

If you were to look at this issue as 'how to SCUBA dive with a smaller tank' as suggested. And again, let's work on 4/5m max, picking up bugs and shellfish, etc.

Can anyone here give me the definitive PADI or US Navy Divers figures for no decompression limit times for 3/4/5m on air?

While any form of SCUBA is potentially dangerous, I'd say heading down to 20m with full gear, V's a few hours fun snorkelling and the air assisted aspect as an add-on bonus is far safer. Diving is risky, but it doesn't stop millions from enjoying the hobby, even with it's risks, certain death! Surely we can't just say 'don't do it' without backing up the pure science. Perhaps the truth is because it is a slightly unorthodox approach, it get's poo pooed.

I'm a great believer in 110% safety, but we need to stick to accurate and consistent facts about diving. So, from 3m to 9.1m, would anyone care to provide the accurate figures and info on disolved nitrogen at these depths? Why does the PADI chart start at 10m, what's up with 3m to 10m, too shallow, not enough info or low risk?

Some of this snorkelling is done in water no deeper than the deep end of a pool, does anyone pay any attention when we're in the pool, na, too shallow init.

There will be a safe way to do this air assisted for sure, it ain't that bad surely folks. I'm still alive!

incoming fire for sure

I want to get into pony bottle assisted snorkalling which i have heard mentioned before.

any guidance/tips/info on this at all?

what are the best pony bottles for the job?

Does it go on a belt? how do I dive with it?

 

[smile47]

I think TEAMCASA is right,I wouldnt mix the two.

 

[jjtrin]

I tried this in the summer. (snorkeling with the intention of using the pony only to descend to take a closer look at something) I attached the pony to a full size back pack and bought a simple BC. It worked great because of not a lot of stuff to drag to the water. The problem was that the visibility in the Delaware bay was only a few feet.

I do agree it can be very dangerous mixing breath holding with taking a breath from the pony bottle.DO ONE AT A TIME.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

safety stops? assending from 6 to 10 meters? really?

Hi Lims,

I think treating the dive as a scuba dive once you've breathed compressed air is the prudent thing to do, especially if you'll be going from the surface to depth to the surface repeatedly. As mentioned, instructors have gotten bent in shallow water conducting CESA drills with classes. So what I think is being recommeded is using good judgement and perform a normal slow "scuba" ascent if you breath compressed air at any point during the dive.

Also prudent is a rest interval on the surface if you are mixing freediving and brief scuba use, because:

If you develop your freediving skills to an advanced enough level, you can in fact get bent without breathing compressed air at all :shocked2: (This has been documented for many years, especially in the South Pacific, and seems to require deep, repetitive free dives with too-short rest intervals, which is beyond the abilities of most casual "snorkelers", but within the abilities of many skilled free divers/spearfishermen).

Best wishes.