POINTING FINGERS AFTER A DIVER’S DEATH (rant & discussion)

[Saniflush]

I must disagree with your premise. The boat has a tremendous amount to do with the safety of the passengers, and the outcome of any accidents. My BP is now up, so I'm going to rant back.

First off, I ran a charter boat for 17 years. We had a reputation of being safe to the detriment of our reputation as a$$holes. So be it, my stated purpose was to bring every diver home. I was not sucessful, but it wasn't due to a lack of duty of care on my part. In the beginning, nitrox was a profit center, and we charged a pretty penny for it. $10 a fill. We ran an average of 8 cases of DCS per 3 month dive season. We dove the Flower Gardens, which are deep and remote, offering 5 dives a day. In 2008 I made nitrox inclusive in the trip fee. My DCS rate dropped to zero that day. As I said, we were a$$holes, we insisted everyone dive nitrox, to the point where if you weren't nitrox certified, we gave you a certification class. If you wanted the card, you had to buy that. Poof, My incidence of DCS dropped to zero. For the following 8 years, I never had anyone get bent.

But the real issue is not what happens in the water, the boat crew can't do MUCH about that, except describe what is unacceptable behavior and carry through with whatever penalties are described for that behavior. For instance, it was considered to be unacceptable in the Spree to run out of gas. If you ran out, you sat out. No exceptions. It was considered unacceptable to surface in deco. You did, you sat until your computer cleared. 24 or 48 hours. No exceptions, unless you were wearing 2 computers. It was considered unacceptable to surface without your buddy, unless you had a good story, or if you were a solo diver.

But back to after you surface. A responsible boat crew makes sure you are back on the boat. A responsible captain makes sure they made sure. A responsible boat makes sure that all first aid equipment is there, ready to use, and in working condition. We had a fatality in Key West yesterday. No AED on the boat, and the O2 kit had a regulator and hose, but no working mask. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. Did that sink in yet?

I saved a life last week on another boat. Pretty happy to have one in the win column. Wasn't a diver, but it took all of my skills, an AED, an ambu-bag, O2, Oropharyngeal airway, and plenty of help. I ran a liveaboard with 7 crew so I could have plenty of help and still get underway.

So, yes. The dive boat absolutely has a responsibility to make things not go pear shaped. And regarding profits. I owned the Spree for 14 years. I made a profit in 4 of those years, 1 when I sold the boat, and 3 when I had winter jobs other than diving. Running a dive boat where safety is job 1 and customer service is job 2 is hard on the bottom line. What it does is create an absolutely loyal client who places safety above all else. That was the client I was looking for, it was the client I cultivated, and I didn't want the other kind. That was hard on the bottom line too. I enjoyed an 80 percent return customer rate.

And in 18 years I was never sued for something I did or didn't do. Or for anything else.

Love, love, love this. Posts like this is how I have been able to learn what to start looking for in a dive shop and or a boat.

 

[cerich]

I must disagree with your premise. The boat has a tremendous amount to do with the safety of the passengers, and the outcome of any accidents. My BP is now up, so I'm going to rant back.

First off, I ran a charter boat for 17 years. We had a reputation of being safe to the detriment of our reputation as a$$holes. So be it, my stated purpose was to bring every diver home. I was not sucessful, but it wasn't due to a lack of duty of care on my part. In the beginning, nitrox was a profit center, and we charged a pretty penny for it. $10 a fill. We ran an average of 8 cases of DCS per 3 month dive season. We dove the Flower Gardens, which are deep and remote, offering 5 dives a day. In 2008 I made nitrox inclusive in the trip fee. My DCS rate dropped to zero that day. As I said, we were a$$holes, we insisted everyone dive nitrox, to the point where if you weren't nitrox certified, we gave you a certification class. If you wanted the card, you had to buy that. Poof, My incidence of DCS dropped to zero. For the following 8 years, I never had anyone get bent.

But the real issue is not what happens in the water, the boat crew can't do MUCH about that, except describe what is unacceptable behavior and carry through with whatever penalties are described for that behavior. For instance, it was considered to be unacceptable in the Spree to run out of gas. If you ran out, you sat out. No exceptions. It was considered unacceptable to surface in deco. You did, you sat until your computer cleared. 24 or 48 hours. No exceptions, unless you were wearing 2 computers. It was considered unacceptable to surface without your buddy, unless you had a good story, or if you were a solo diver.

But back to after you surface. A responsible boat crew makes sure you are back on the boat. A responsible captain makes sure they made sure. A responsible boat makes sure that all first aid equipment is there, ready to use, and in working condition. We had a fatality in Key West yesterday. No AED on the boat, and the O2 kit had a regulator and hose, but no working mask. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. Did that sink in yet?

I saved a life last week on another boat. Pretty happy to have one in the win column. Wasn't a diver, but it took all of my skills, an AED, an ambu-bag, O2, Oropharyngeal airway, and plenty of help. I ran a liveaboard with 7 crew so I could have plenty of help and still get underway.

So, yes. The dive boat absolutely has a responsibility to make things not go pear shaped. And regarding profits. I owned the Spree for 14 years. I made a profit in 4 of those years, 1 when I sold the boat, and 3 when I had winter jobs other than diving. Running a dive boat where safety is job 1 and customer service is job 2 is hard on the bottom line. What it does is create an absolutely loyal client who places safety above all else. That was the client I was looking for, it was the client I cultivated, and I didn't want the other kind. That was hard on the bottom line too. I enjoyed an 80 percent return customer rate.

And in 18 years I was never sued for something I did or didn't do. Or for anything else.

thank you Frank, I am so damn tired of hearing the dive industry push that a boat is simply a taxi that has virtually no bearing on dive safety, nor responsibility when things go pear shaped. It's a dis service to divers and is legally wrong.

 

[Wookie]

The dive op is not the Scuba police so why should we expect them to act like one? Do we expect the taxi driver to enquire about our ability to play golf as he drops us off at the links? No, and we could easily misconstrue any such enquiry as an invasion of our privacy. We choose to jump out of a perfectly good boat into danger.

You make a common argument, and a valid one to many divers. I'll tell you where it breaks down. You hire a cabby to take you to the links. The cabby may be homeless, probably has a driver's license, and you are paying him to go to a destination, and that's fine. You pay a boat captain (more or less a professional, although I've seen sketchy ones in the keys) to bring you home. He may give you some advice for the dive, he's probably a lot more experienced than you are, and he certainly knows the dive site and how to dive from his boat. Now, your cabbie may be a golf pro. He may have you put the seat belt on if you sit in the front seat. He may give you tips on your stroke, but he's sure not going to take you home again.

Your captain needs to be of the mind set that you need to be in at least the same condition he found you in when you get back to the dock. Anything less is unprofessional and a disservice to the client and his heirs.

 

[fsardone]

My point is that people don't take advantage of the one thing that they could do to be a little safer.

Fully agree.
People to save a few bucks will act suicidal. Think about those reb divers using the oxygen sensor past their time (several people died of this) or using a different adsorbant and expect their temp stick to warn them of impending co2 breakthrough.
The issue is education of divers and dive related professionals. The aviation world has invested heavily to build a safety first mentality. I see very little sign of this in diving. There are a few people very safety minded, but it takes effort and money. Also the result are not easily visible. A prevented accident is not seen!

 

[tarponchik]

It's kind of off topic but I think that is a failure of certification agencies to present nitrox training during OW classes. You don't know what you don't know and that guy may not have understood the "why" of nitrox because he hadn't undertaken the class. Certification agencies should add a couple pages to their OW manuals and stop trying to make the buck on the extra class.

The agencies do this. I got certified for OW and NITROX at once. My NAUI C-card says NITROX DIVER, which can cause some confusion. In one of the Bonaire trips the lady at the dive shop refused to give us tanks and kept asking me, "This is you NITROX certification card, but where is your C-card?!" until her boss came in.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I must disagree with your premise. The boat has a tremendous amount to do with the safety of the passengers, and the outcome of any accidents

You misconstrue my premise, Frank. I didn't contend the boat has no responsibility or role in safety. The underlying premise is that the boat often gets blamed (and sometimes sued) for things - like a diver running out of air - that are beyond their control or responsibilities.

 

[Dan]

I must disagree with your premise. The boat has a tremendous amount to do with the safety of the passengers, and the outcome of any accidents. My BP is now up, so I'm going to rant back.

First off, I ran a charter boat for 17 years. We had a reputation of being safe to the detriment of our reputation as a$$holes. So be it, my stated purpose was to bring every diver home. I was not sucessful, but it wasn't due to a lack of duty of care on my part. In the beginning, nitrox was a profit center, and we charged a pretty penny for it. $10 a fill. We ran an average of 8 cases of DCS per 3 month dive season. We dove the Flower Gardens, which are deep and remote, offering 5 dives a day. In 2008 I made nitrox inclusive in the trip fee. My DCS rate dropped to zero that day. As I said, we were a$$holes, we insisted everyone dive nitrox, to the point where if you weren't nitrox certified, we gave you a certification class. If you wanted the card, you had to buy that. Poof, My incidence of DCS dropped to zero. For the following 8 years, I never had anyone get bent.

But the real issue is not what happens in the water, the boat crew can't do MUCH about that, except describe what is unacceptable behavior and carry through with whatever penalties are described for that behavior. For instance, it was considered to be unacceptable in the Spree to run out of gas. If you ran out, you sat out. No exceptions. It was considered unacceptable to surface in deco. You did, you sat until your computer cleared. 24 or 48 hours. No exceptions, unless you were wearing 2 computers. It was considered unacceptable to surface without your buddy, unless you had a good story, or if you were a solo diver.

But back to after you surface. A responsible boat crew makes sure you are back on the boat. A responsible captain makes sure they made sure. A responsible boat makes sure that all first aid equipment is there, ready to use, and in working condition. We had a fatality in Key West yesterday. No AED on the boat, and the O2 kit had a regulator and hose, but no working mask. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. A dive boat had no working O2 kit. Did that sink in yet?

I saved a life last week on another boat. Pretty happy to have one in the win column. Wasn't a diver, but it took all of my skills, an AED, an ambu-bag, O2, Oropharyngeal airway, and plenty of help. I ran a liveaboard with 7 crew so I could have plenty of help and still get underway.

So, yes. The dive boat absolutely has a responsibility to make things not go pear shaped. And regarding profits. I owned the Spree for 14 years. I made a profit in 4 of those years, 1 when I sold the boat, and 3 when I had winter jobs other than diving. Running a dive boat where safety is job 1 and customer service is job 2 is hard on the bottom line. What it does is create an absolutely loyal client who places safety above all else. That was the client I was looking for, it was the client I cultivated, and I didn't want the other kind. That was hard on the bottom line too. I enjoyed an 80 percent return customer rate.

And in 18 years I was never sued for something I did or didn't do. Or for anything else.

I think I was in one of the Spree trip to Flower Garden around that time.

Flower Garden Banks sites are deep with minimum depth of 70+ FSW. I've been diving there since 2005. I always wonder how close to the limit of getting bent that divers will get to with 5 NDL dives / day on air. I saw a diver got bent when I was with Spree at the time. Last month I was with Fling & one diver got bent. I posted the incident here: A diver air lifted off the coast of Galveston, Texas by US Coast Guard on July 16, 2017 He did the 5 dives on air if I'm not mistaken. I only made 4 dives with Nitrox & skipping the night dive. He didn't. He got bent on the next morning dive.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

It's kind of off topic but I think that is a failure of certification agencies to present nitrox training during OW classes.

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. It's about Boyle, Dalton, Henry, & Haldane. (And if anyone's got a quizzical look right now, you've proved my point.) It's not just about knowing how to use nitrox, it's understanding gas laws and nitrogen uptake & offgassing so you can make informed decisions about what gas or mix or nitrox is right for you and your circumstances. It's about being deeper and more thorough in our teaching of the OW student, not simply "adding a couple of pages" and thinking you've created a smarter diver.

 

[Wookie]

You misconstrue my premise, Frank. I didn't contend the boat has no responsibility or role in safety. The underlying premise is that the boat often gets blamed (and sometimes sued) for things - like a diver running out of air - that are beyond their control or responsibilities.

I'd be shocked if a plaintiff would be successful putting forth that the boat was responsible for the amount of air remaining, unless the boat provided a DM (which is why they typically don't in the US), but I apologize. I took your post and the follow on responses completely differently. I thought you were putting forth the premise that a boat wasn't responsible once the divers were over the side. I believe the boat is responsible (in many ways) from dock to dock.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Your captain needs to be of the mind set that you need to be in at least the same condition he found you in when you get back to the dock. Anything less is unprofessional and a disservice to the client and his heirs.

No boat captain has succeeded that with me. As I'm always much more relaxed with a much bigger grin on my face. , having really enjoyed the day.