Point & Shoot user

[captdaveb]

Did my first dives with my AS1100(ikelite houseing & sea&sea YS-110 strobe) and new strobe equipment. Dove at Destin, with Puffer Fish, and have to thank Jim for sharing his wisdom with a new photographer. I was using regular AA's in camera & strobe. Strobe made both dives without problem, but could have been faster on the recycle time. Camera ate fresh batteries each dive(slaving off it's flash for each shot was a drainer) and shots were lost waiting for it to recycle. Sure a lot to learn(!!), and I got such great shots on land, even at night with this camera. Jim suggested rechargable batteries and gave me his opinion on some good ones. I am going with Ansmann 2850, and their Max E+ 2,500, for my battery choices, and the Maha C-900 charger. Ordered these on Amazon, charger and 12 batteries for $107.00. Hoping recycle times and battery life will be better with this change. As Jim pointed out, changing batteries in the camera between dives can lead to leaks, as well as condensation problems. Will update when I get a chance to try these out in May. (I'm a Pilot on the Miss. River, stay out here a month at a time.) Capt. Dave

 

[Maddog59]

Capt dave,
Forget about the Ansmann batteries and go with the eneloop Sanyo 2000 cells.

16 Pack New Version SANYO ENELOOP AAA 800 mAh Low Discharge Batteries
These have been proven time and again to be the best batteries for the high demand applications we use as underwater photographers. There are many threads on this site about these batteries so I wont go over the reasons but do your research on them and look at the testemonials from other posters and you will see a common thread. The Maha C 9000 charger is the way to go!
Maha MH-C9000 Battery Charger

I hope this helps

 

[captdaveb]

Maddog59,
Thanks for the input! I certainly appreciate all the help I can get, and will definitely check out the Eneloop batteries. It's all new to me, don't have that many recently logged dives either, so that is another "learning as I go" experience. The big difference is, at my age I'm old enough to learn from other people's experiences. Thanks again for your help!

 

[Puffer Fish]

Hi Dave, I'll still stand by those Ansmann batteries.... if you want to compare them, I have both Eneloop and Ansmann..

Eneloop are very nice batteries, not that powerful, but nicely made.

I also have Delken, Duracell (japanese cells), Power 2000 (2900), Energizer and Powerex (and several others).

I look for two things - capacity, and consistency of discharge over time.

Eneloops are consistent, but not very big on capacity. The others start out with capacity, but over time they do not discharge consistently.

That charger is a great tool for testing batteries by the way.

I don't recommend something I have not tested a lot.

I can easily use up a set of Eneloops on a pair of dives, but not the Ansmanns, and have yet to see differential current draw on a set (the first sign of a problem).

It should also be noted that Maddog linked to AAA batteries by mistake, and that Sanyo is updating their rather dated 2000mah (just not sure how recent events will effect this timing). I know the higher capacity ones were out in Japan.

 

[DaveCT]

FYI, just noticed that Amazon is now carrying the new Eneloop XX hi-capacity batteries, but they are very pricey: Sanyo Eneloop XX AA 2500maH.

DaveCT

 

[Puffer Fish]

For anyone interested in the electrical engineering of batteries, a little explanation is in order.

There are two things one needs from a set of batteries:

1. Capacity

2. Uniform discharge.

Ignoring the first item for a minute, the great thing about eneloop batteries was that they brought a higher internal resistance, and a great improvement in uniform discharge. It was and is common for one battery to discharge faster than the rest, and in so doing, when it runs out of power, the set runs out. Eneloops greatly reduced this tendency.

An artifact of reducing the self discharge was much more uniform current drain between batteries.

This led to eneloop becoming the defacto battery to use whenever one had to rely on a set of 4 to power something.

Only problem is, it is difficult to increase the internal resistance, and at the same time make a more powerful battery.

Regarding power... one of the worst batteries I ever purchased were Sanyo 2700...yup, same company that makes eneloops..

What one would like is a high and uniform resistance, and as much power as possible.

But just how much power does a battery actually have... is a eneloop 2000, actually 2000... ..how about those one rated at 2950?

So some rules:

1. A variable resistance set of batteries is only as strong as the weakest battery.

2. A consistent discharge set is also only as strong as the weakest one (but you get to use the power from the other 3 until the weak one dies).

You will see people test batteries and comment that the 2500mah batteries might only actually be 2100...or 2400 or some other number...seldom do they actually equal what the rating is. (I get 1800 -1900 when I test eneloops).

But before you take any reading from a battery charger, or from the internet, consider the following:

1. The capacity of a battery goes up the slower it is charged, to a point, and below a specific level, can act very strange (I have had batteries at a charge rate of 200 mah that would never completely charge.

2. The capacity of the battery changes with the type of discharge...but one thing is sure, trickle discharge (that used by a charger to test batteries) has very little to do with how strobes use battery power.

3. The capacity of the battery in a tester is defined when the batteries get down to a specific voltage... the higher this is, the less capacity it will show. Your strobe may have a completely different voltage.

I typically test batteries by charging at 500mah, and then putting them in a strobe and firing the strobe at roughtly the rate that I would use a strobe, and when I reach the end, then see how much power has been taken from each battery.

This test can produce tremendously different results over what a better charger says the capacity is. I have the Ansmann 2850's take more than 2850 to charge for this test, but do a trickle test and have them show a capacity of around 2500, and only take 2300 to completely charge.

One would hope that people understand that it really is about the actual battery performance in actual use, and not some test.

 

[slowhands]

I think you are fighting a losing battle. The problems is battery technology. Two AA batteries just don't have enough energy storage, and also they put out only 2.5V total instead of the 4.7V of typical lithium ion dedicated batteries. Because of this, the A1100 flash recharges slowly, about twice as slow as a comparable camera with lithium batteries, and you only get one dive's worth of use per battery set.

If you really want to solve this, you are going to have to move to a different camera that takes higher voltage lithium ion batteries.

 

[bvanant]

I have done a lot of tests (controlled current and pulse) and have written it up over at uwphotography.com
Batteries put to the test - best batteries for your underwater strobes|Underwater Photography Guide
and in my hands at least, the higher capacity Ansmann batteries do not perform nearly as well or as long as the low internal discharge type batteries.

Bill

 

[Puffer Fish]

Bill, Nice work and nothing very surprising.

My tests with the Ansmann low discharge versus the Eneloop would match.

Where we differ is in doing an actual test in strobes. High capacity batteries would be at a major disadvantage with your pulse test (and they show it). But I doubt most commonly used strobes are that high and for that long.

Keep in mind that uniformity of current draw does not effect a single battery, but does effect a set, and that the pulse cycle time on a YS110 (my test strobe) is much shorter than 4 seconds. Also, most strobe shots are not done at maximum current draw (well mine are not, someone else it may be).

What is great about your testing is that it shows that different batteries act differently under different types of draw. It also shows the advantage with some devices of a higher internal resistance...and for that I thank you.

One other thing, it would be nice if you showed your charge rate, as that also effects capacity.

I stopped using the Delkin 2900, by the way, not because of capacity, but because of internal resistance variation causing one battery to die.

 

[bvanant]

Bill, Nice work and nothing very surprising.

My tests with the Ansmann low discharge versus the Eneloop would match.

Where we differ is in doing an actual test in strobes. High capacity batteries would be at a major disadvantage with your pulse test (and they show it). But I doubt most commonly used strobes are that high and for that long.

Keep in mind that uniformity of current draw does not effect a single battery, but does effect a set, and that the pulse cycle time on a YS110 (my test strobe) is much shorter than 4 seconds. Also, most strobe shots are not done at maximum current draw (well mine are not, someone else it may be).

What is great about your testing is that it shows that different batteries act differently under different types of draw. It also shows the advantage with some devices of a higher internal resistance...and for that I thank you.

One other thing, it would be nice if you showed your charge rate, as that also effects capacity.

I stopped using the Delkin 2900, by the way, not because of capacity, but because of internal resistance variation causing one battery to die.

In fact, the pulse profile that I chose was based on monitoring the discharge current of one of my Inon Z240 strobes, of course I normalized the system to a single battery. I also put batteries in strobes and tried to quantify total number of flashes and recycle times but I am too lazy to correlate all the data, the computer controlled discharge at low currents took long enough. In any case, I have moved to some higher capacity low internal discharge cells and luckily have not had a dive where strobe power went missing.
Bill