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I think its reasonable to expect them to have a good starting point which they can build on with practice. As it is now they're barely, if at all, even exposed to the term "trim".
WW
Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes
- Thread starter MikeFerrara
- Start date
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I think its reasonable to expect them to have a good starting point which they can build on with practice. As it is now they're barely, if at all, even exposed to the term "trim".
WW
Total agreement.
Heres the rub IMO, how many will actually practice? FME, not many. The people who actually want to work at something they took up primarily as recreation, are the minority.
Then the discussion becomes should these people be certifiable in the first place? That can certainly be debated from both sides.
See where i'm going with this? Who decides, what qualifies someone to get certified? In the beginning, its the agency. In the end it's the instructor as the agencies agent. Not an enviable position as i'm sure you know Tom.
People a lot smarter than me came up with those answers. I'm not going to jump off a cliff just because they tell me too but do trust they have more answers than me or most of the people on this board.
With that said, i would not be upset if teaching trim became a hard standard. Determining mastery of trim, to punch the c-card for the student is the hard thing IMO.
OP
At the moment I can only think of one PADI class that mentions trim and that is the PPB. They only mention it in passing and they are not very plain about how to get there. You can become a DM or instructor without understanding the comcept. I have talked to lots of instructors and DM's, after seeing their students strugle in OW, who never thought of putting weights anyplace other than on a belt or in the pouches. One was the owner of a shop that certified 400 OW students las year (according to him).
What did you do different in the pool with these two classes? How did the pool sessions go?
All I really do is explain the concept, show some video examples, help position tank and weights and look for a horizontal position when swimming and hovering. Simple.
My guess is you won't get an equipment change but while it may be desired I don't think it's required.
OP
I would agree if it we not for the number of divers (not just students) I see head up foot down leaving huge silt trails kicking all the time just to maintain depth. I think someone missed something.
I think when RM and I bantered back and forth this got lost in the shuffle:
"It's up to us instructors to make it clear to students they are not done because they got their c-card. At the very minimum they need to go all the way through rescue training - before they are a reliable buddy and before they are environmentally aware. Our future depends on environmental awareness.
Honestly, if all this thread has found wrong with OW is that PADI has left out trim, then the program is far more bulletproof than even I imagined. Why with all the noise everyone is making and with all of the woes everyone claims to be seeing surely more must be wrong.
I see bad divers too. But you know what really gets up my craw is when I hear these divers are beyond Open Water certification! What I think would be far more useful for this thread would be to discuss what is missing from the advanced course from AOW. Now that course is chalk full of holes - IMO.
So I'll pose the question: What essential things aren't covered in AOW?
I'll start - no class room, no quizzes, no exam, and no pool sessions. According to PADI it can be taught without any of these. No joke. Students can study at home and bring knowledge reviews to orally discuss and hand-in at the dive site."
I'll add PPB shouldn't be a separate class it should be a required component of the performance requirements for Advanced Open Water! And should have new finning techniques, better buddy communication and scenario role-playing, full discussion on trim and equipments role in that, even a little buoyancy physics elaboration.
I'll be the first to admit - AOW is a complete joke - I like the way it was put here - AOW is a marketing leader to more courses. Here's a thought, and not a strech - how about AOW being arranged so that it actually produces "advanced divers".
"It's up to us instructors to make it clear to students they are not done because they got their c-card. At the very minimum they need to go all the way through rescue training - before they are a reliable buddy and before they are environmentally aware. Our future depends on environmental awareness.
Honestly, if all this thread has found wrong with OW is that PADI has left out trim, then the program is far more bulletproof than even I imagined. Why with all the noise everyone is making and with all of the woes everyone claims to be seeing surely more must be wrong.
I see bad divers too. But you know what really gets up my craw is when I hear these divers are beyond Open Water certification! What I think would be far more useful for this thread would be to discuss what is missing from the advanced course from AOW. Now that course is chalk full of holes - IMO.
So I'll pose the question: What essential things aren't covered in AOW?
I'll start - no class room, no quizzes, no exam, and no pool sessions. According to PADI it can be taught without any of these. No joke. Students can study at home and bring knowledge reviews to orally discuss and hand-in at the dive site."
I'll add PPB shouldn't be a separate class it should be a required component of the performance requirements for Advanced Open Water! And should have new finning techniques, better buddy communication and scenario role-playing, full discussion on trim and equipments role in that, even a little buoyancy physics elaboration.
I'll be the first to admit - AOW is a complete joke - I like the way it was put here - AOW is a marketing leader to more courses. Here's a thought, and not a strech - how about AOW being arranged so that it actually produces "advanced divers".
Instructors don't remind students enough how minimum their skills are. They pump them up by saying things like "if you learn to dive in X, or with me, or whatever - you're prepared to dive anywhere."
If AOW was made into a far more respectable curriculum then sites could start absolutely requiring (and policing) divers - signs could indicate this is a double black diamond site - are you an advanced diver?
Also include a little gas blending, and force enriched air as one of the "adventure dives". Make it a required part of the AOW course. I know, I know - PADI is international and not every LDS can fill nitrox. Well you know what - tell them they have to comply by Jan 2004 and take away their 5-star status if they don't!
Let's make some changes where they can count. Let's improve something that will make a difference! Let's remind students they are nothing without the "new" AOW!
If AOW was made into a far more respectable curriculum then sites could start absolutely requiring (and policing) divers - signs could indicate this is a double black diamond site - are you an advanced diver?
Also include a little gas blending, and force enriched air as one of the "adventure dives". Make it a required part of the AOW course. I know, I know - PADI is international and not every LDS can fill nitrox. Well you know what - tell them they have to comply by Jan 2004 and take away their 5-star status if they don't!
Let's make some changes where they can count. Let's improve something that will make a difference! Let's remind students they are nothing without the "new" AOW!
The concept of a rating system is actually a good idea IMHO. It won't prevent some of the idiots out there from going where they shouldn't. It doesn't in skiing either. But maybe reasonably prudent and intelligent people will at least stop and think about it.
As for gas mixing, and even deco theory. Those used to be taught in Basic OW in some agencies. Those were what I expected to get in AOW, but didn't.
sillygrendel
Contributor
I agree with your suggestion that BOW as it is now is not nearly sufficient for most dives.
I guess what we have a differing opinion on is under what conditions it is reasonable. From what you have said I would probably argue that such divers should not be allowed over a silty bottom or over coral. They probably shouldn't dive without supervision either. (assuming the minimum standards that are taught at many places)
Do you feel that AOW should be allowed to be immediately followed by OW or do you feel the diver should gain more experience before attempting it?
I guess what I take issue with is certifying divers to be independent, when they really aren't. From some of your statements I feel like you consider the PADI OW program to be the way I see the PADI scuba diver program to be.
Jarhead
Contributor
AOW in most agencies are made of "Meat and Potatoes".
My NASE AOW, as an example, required:
Six class sessions
three pool dives and
five open water dives
Subjects included:
gas management
planning dives with a map and compass
simple decompression dive tables (US Navy tables)
deep dive physics and physiology and
stress management
On our open water dives we had to demonstrate profiency with U/W navigation and night diving (at the springs). From the boat, we did
a deep dive (101fsw), simple wreck penetration and fun dive. We had to show our dive plan before all dives and critic each dive afterward.
My NASE AOW, as an example, required:
Six class sessions
three pool dives and
five open water dives
Subjects included:
gas management
planning dives with a map and compass
simple decompression dive tables (US Navy tables)
deep dive physics and physiology and
stress management
On our open water dives we had to demonstrate profiency with U/W navigation and night diving (at the springs). From the boat, we did
a deep dive (101fsw), simple wreck penetration and fun dive. We had to show our dive plan before all dives and critic each dive afterward.
OP
Except...IMO
New divers need buddy skills and buddies who have them more than anyone else. they are more likely to have a problem and less likely to manage it alone.
New divers need good trim more than anyone else. They don't need any complications when responding to a problem and they sure don't need for it to be any easier to mess up the bottom.
New divers need streaamlined and secured equipment more than anyone else. Again they don't need an emergency to be more complex because they can't find their alternate.
Good technique is as important on dive 1 as dive 1000.
With the acception of maybe PPB continueing education is designed to teach new applications for diving not diving itself. AOW and the specialties assume you have already learned how to dive yet in OW they say you will learn it later. It's starting to sound like a bunch of BS to me.
New divers need buddy skills and buddies who have them more than anyone else. they are more likely to have a problem and less likely to manage it alone.
New divers need good trim more than anyone else. They don't need any complications when responding to a problem and they sure don't need for it to be any easier to mess up the bottom.
New divers need streaamlined and secured equipment more than anyone else. Again they don't need an emergency to be more complex because they can't find their alternate.
Good technique is as important on dive 1 as dive 1000.
With the acception of maybe PPB continueing education is designed to teach new applications for diving not diving itself. AOW and the specialties assume you have already learned how to dive yet in OW they say you will learn it later. It's starting to sound like a bunch of BS to me.
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