Point-for-point on what's missing from OW Classes

[jbd]

you mis interpreted my post. I understand that there is more taught in the class then just the flutter kick. My comments were resticted to finning techniques only. From what you had posted, I took it to be that only the flutter kick is taught as the finning technique.

I was not aware that PADI had allowances for environmental considerations. I'm not a PADI instructor so I'm not up on all of their materials.

I was certified through PADI for OW and AOW. My daughter was certified 2 years ago through PADI. She had a good class conducted by a good instructor---I watched every minute of her training.

What I did notice was a difference between my OW student text and her OW text. But thats for another thread at another time and apparently not limited to PADI from what I have heard.

 

[DiverBuoy]

detroit diver once bubbled...
The Octopus

Please tell me why a more efficient method of air sharing is not taught? I'm speaking of donated primary reg, or at least a really long hose on a backup reg. Air sharing while plastered to your buddy while using an "octopus" is not pretty, nor is it efficient or, IMO, safe.

Let me venture a guess why it's not taught with a donated primary reg- that would require student to put in their mouth someone else's reg. Maybe some wouldn't want to do this, and might want to leave the class. Oops, that would cost money to PADI. Can't do that.

Passing the primary is acceptable. Ever heard of AIR 2? When demonstrating the use of an Alternate Air Source Use Share Air using a BC with an integrated air source requires the donation of the primary. I actually have both (AIR 2 and an alternate) to demonstrate the use of both. My primary has a Sea Cure mouthpiece and my mouth is deep so on 90% of folks my primary actually gags them - enough to cough out the regulator actually. So I use the alternate for those folks.

When offering your primary regulator - there is an increased risk at the moment when both divers are without an air source. This is also why Buddy Breathing was moved to #4 on the OOA ascent scenarios ahead of BB. After years of real-world experience.

On airlines they ask parents to secure their own mask first and then the child. If both persons are without oxygen for even a short moment there is a risk. It is sound to have an alternate regulator and offer it first. Even better to have a completely redundant air source - actually.

Your last comment about putting someone else's regulator in your mouth - isn't rediculous at all - in our modern society. There is always the risk of disease - even a virus. But the same dilemma faces rescue workers every day. They have specialized equipment, skill, and technique to minimize risk. If you can't take the risk get out of that line of work.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


What is? and where?

As to ascents and descents and maintaining buddy contact, the PADI Instructor Manual has a few things to say:

Remind students to stay with their buddies, to equalize early and often, and to add air to their BCDs in small amounts frequently so they maintain, rather than reestablish proper buoyancy as they descend.


Five point ascent. The emphasis during ascent is on maintaining buoyancy control, maintaining a proper ascent rate and maintaining buddy contact.

 

[sillygrendel]

[EDIT]
Sigh... Nevermind. I don't want to open that can of worms.
:bonk: :bonk:

 

[wb416]

detroit diver once bubbled...

You can't follow the PADI manual to the letter and expect to teach proper techniques. The instructor has to go FAR beyond that jokebook in order for the student to really learn how to dive.

Easy there big guy... from what I remember of my Instructional Design and Delivery classes at the University, the PADI material utilizes good techniques for the varied presentation of the information. I'm not saying I agree 100% with everything covered in the material, I'm just say that the delivery mechanisms are good.

I personally don't like to do a lot of material design, so I wouldn't have a problem using that as a textbook and supplementing with other handouts and other media to attain the emphasis I was desiring. Unless you write your own material, the materials are rarely exactly what an instructor or Professor wants, but you can work from it as a base.

Joke? I don't think so... sounds a bit melodramatic to me... you're not sexually frustrated, are you?

wb

 

[detroit diver]

cwb once bubbled...


....

Joke? I don't think so... sounds a bit melodramatic to me... you're not sexually frustrated, are you?

wb

I am, but that's an issue for another thread....

As for the delivery mechanisms, they stink. They allow the instructor to do the very minimal required and still pass the student if they achieve that low base. Only the instructor with any heart or knowledge of diving, and who really cares how a student learns will go beyond the minimal requirements of that teaching manual. The bottom line is, they're not required to (and most of them don't know the difference anyway). And we all know what most people do when given such a low bar. They attain that goal, and nothing more.

DB-you think my post was inflammatory? It was meant to be. It makes me sick that such a low standard is applied to diving, and the standard keeps dropping. Make the class cost what it takes to get proper instruction, pay the instructor well, and start raising the bar for the instructors as well as the students. That would eliminate a big part of the problem, except that PADI wouldn't be raking in as much dough. And that's why mediocrity will prevail.

 

[wb416]

detroit diver once bubbled...


I am, but that's an issue for another thread....

As for the delivery mechanisms, they stink.

I believe you misunderstood what I meant. I'm not talking about how an instructor delivers the material.

The delivery mechanisms I speak of are those in the training materials themselves (how the pages are laid out; pictorials; diagrams; break up of the information, ect.) You referred to it as a jokebook. I took exception to that. I think the material isn't perfect, but has merit.

detroit diver once bubbled...

They allow the instructor to do the very minimal required and still pass the student if they achieve that low base.

The training material has nothing to do with this. That would be the agency standards, and instructor requirements regarding them. The material is just a tool. How it is used is determined by the agency.

 

[DiverBuoy]

from trying to draw it out with Detroit - you won't get anywhere. He is only interested in inflammatory statements. PADI materials are recognized even among the other agencies, and the industry as being the very best. It's all in there. It's up to the instructors to bring it out.

That said ...

 

[DiverBuoy]

Mike Ferrara bubbled
Ascents and descents....
I can't help but notice how many divers get seperated during an ascent or descent. Everyone drops to the bottom and then looks for each other. I also have noticed that ascents and descents are among the most likely times for a diver to have a problem (not in the book but true). One diver may have trouble equalizing and stop or even ascend while the other diver continues to the bottom. I have seen divers have free flows and ascend while their buddy continues on to the bottom. The result is two divers who are alone and one with a problem. Watching divers start a dive at France park in the summer when the vis isn't so good or at night is funny. The'll drop and come up several times before they manage to find each other on the bottom and start the dive. The book doesn't say anything about staying together or watching your buddy while descending. There also is no performance requirement that teams stay together.

As quoted earlier from performance requirements in the PADI materials:

Open Water Dive 1 section:
Underwater exploration. This is the heart of Open Water Dive 1. Although to the experienced diver it is "just swimming around," the novice is learning and assimilating a great deal, such as buoyancy control, body attitude, buddy contact, communication, breathing and dozens of other underwater capabilities that experienced divers find second nature...

Buddy contact is a performance requirement. Here are 9 things Buddy's are required to do as part of the Buddy system taught by PADI. Almost nothing the instructor could say in this area would go "beyond the materials" because PADI stresses buddy contact on every dive. Here are 9 things PADI says that buddies should do. When covering you could expand on the meaning for any one of them.

• Establish entry/exit points and techniques.
• Choose a course to follow.
• Agree on maximum time and depth limits.
• Review communications.
• Agree upon returning air pressure.
• Discuss how to stay together.
• Discuss what to do if separated.
• Discuss emergency procedures, including air sharing procedures.
• Agree on an objective - it may be simple, such as "sightsee the reef," but you need to agree on what you're doing together.

But Mike Ferrara I'd have to agree with you, having rescoped the materials thoroughly, I could find nothing elaborate on the actual interaction buddies should have during Ascent and Descent. Certainly nothing as detailed as the level taught by DIR. I'm looking forward to learning more in this area myself. I've seen some of the on-line videos which stress head back horizontal positions facing each other within arms reach of providing the long hose. PADI of course stresses feet down vertical descents - slowly spinning. Which of course is diametrically different from DIR.

 

[detroit diver]

cwb once bubbled...

I believe you misunderstood what I meant. I'm not talking about how an instructor delivers the material.

The delivery mechanisms I speak of are those in the training materials themselves (how the pages are laid out; pictorials; diagrams; break up of the information, ect.) You referred to it as a jokebook. I took exception to that. I think the material isn't perfect, but has merit.




The training material has nothing to do with this. That would be the agency standards, and instructor requirements regarding them. The material is just a tool. How it is used is determined by the agency.

You're right. I was addressing the standards and not the presentation method. But I guess I don't see the merit of pretty pictures and well laid out formats if the material to be presented is lacking in depth and quality. It's the bottom line to the student that matters here. Are they getting quality scuba education, or are the agencies just getting by enough so that they can shove numbers thru their books? I maintain that it's the latter. If they truly wanted to present quality education, then the classes would be longer, the requirements for instructors would be far more stringent, and the skills required to pass the class would be far more comprehensive.

Sorry, pretty books and video's don't cut it if the minimums are not where they should be. And you can't leave it up to the instructor or else you get the minimums, and no more. There are certainly exceptions-mine was one of them (thank goodness). But the rule here is "follow the pretty PADI book and if the student does everything we require, then he/she shall be passed as a competent diver". No, that's not a direct quote, but it should be.

You can call me inflammatory, or anything else that you want. I want to know why the skill requirements are not higher than they are for BOW other than to sell another class. Here's two for an example- AOW and Peak performance bouyancy. BOTH skills are needed on most tourist type Caribbean dives (these are the types of dives that most people are taking diving lessons for), but are not taught in any BASIC class. So what is the result? You get novice divers bouncing off reefs & destroying the corals because they can't control themselves, and you get divers going easily to 80-100 feet because the water is so crystal clear. They don't even know they're narced. And the retention rate is so low (I think I remember less than 10 percent). Maybe some of this is due to the fact that people don't feel comfortable in the water. They're rushed thru a class and told that they're accomplished divers. Look-you've got a card that tells you so! Funny thing is, you don't feel like a solid diver because you haven't had the in- water time that it takes to get comfortable as one. But this is okay with PADI as long as you pass their minimum set of skill requirements.

Raise the bar. Shoot for excellence instead of mediocrity in both instructor and student. Put out quality divers instead of sheer numbers. Then charge what it costs to do this properly and pay the staff well. Then tell me about pretty pictures and video.