Piston vs Diaphragm OR MK25 vs MK17

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

travelrider

Registered
Messages
64
Reaction score
2
Location
33710
# of dives
50 - 99
Maybe this has been discussed before, and if so, I apologize, but I didn't see this exact discussion...

I'm struggling to understand why some people say the ScubaPro MK25 is better than the MK17 even though the MK17 is clearly a better choice for cold water diving. That said, why would one choose the MK25 over the MK17 regardless of whether they plan to cold water dive or not?

Making the question more general, is there any reason why piston is better than diaphram or visa versa?
 
I'm a diaphragm guy, so I might be biased. That said, the Mk25 is a good reg, but the Mk17 is a better reg.

Better in cold water
Better in contaminated/crappy water
Better hose routing, singles or doubles

If it'll do cold and murky, it can do warm and clear. The inverse isn't always true.

That said, the Mk25 is good, but let's be honest. Scubapro is a "piston company" and have built their name on piston regs. It would be like the Corvette going away from pushrod V8s, BMW abandoning inline-sixes and Porsche stopping production of flat-sixes. It's TRADITION as much as anything else. Doesn't matter that their diaphragm reg is a better overall performer than their "flagship" piston reg, they have to position them in the lineup like they do. Rumor has it that they never brought the Mk19 to the states, which was a Mk17 diaphragm, but with a turret like the Mk25, because they knew it would poach sales from the Mk25, because people are convinced that Mk25 hose routing is the best thing ever for doubles, so arguably the only thing the Mk25 has over the Mk17 is the doubles routing. (I disagree and prefer the Mk17 routing.)

The only thing the Mk25 has going for it, (IMHO), is the higher flow rate, which is overblown and not as critical as Scubapro or their dealers make it out to be. It's bragging rights and bench-racing with little real-world application.

The real reason your dealer will sell you on the Mk25, regardless of what they say, is that the Mk25 makes them 50 more bucks on each sale. Period.

It's late, but I'll be on tomorrow.
 
care to show a picture of Mk17 routing for double? I want to know how you do it and why you prefer Mk17 routing.
 
Here are a few pics of my rig in the car about to go dive. I've turned the top of the regulators outward for head clearance when in trim. It doesn't affect valve drills and I've never confused a reg for a knob.

The ONLY thing I don't like, and I freely admit this, is the angle of the HP port sends the HP hose right towards the top of the wing, causing a sharp bend right at the swage. It's not clean and I wish it routed different, but there it is.

I think the hoses route cleaner than on the Mk25, BUT the inner hoses especially, do get those bends in them, though it doesn't stress the swage or hose. It's not as bad on steel tanks with a taller neck, but on AL80s, there it is. I also make it a point to replace all my hoses annually, so it's less of an issue, though that's overkill. The Mk25 routing doesn't get the "bends" like the Mk17 does, but I think this is cleaner and even without Miflex, it is quite pliable and fine.

DA Aquamaster, the resident Scubapro guru, said that the Mk10/15/20/25 style of hose routing was developed after the reg. Some think the Mk25 and it's predecessors were developed with doubles in mind, and they were not. It was a lucky accident of history that they route nicely, but it was more of a "the reg is designed like this. How can we optimize the doubles routing of this platform?" In fact, the original Hogarthian routing has the right post cocked like the left post so the long hose is coming from the bottom port. It wasn't symmetrical.

Pics:

DSC00775.jpg


DSC00778.jpg


DSC00776.jpg


DSC00777.jpg
 
50 fathom has it nailed.

Scubapro is a piston reg company and they built their company on the basic flow thru balanced piston design. Some of the really old farts I encounter at reg repair clinics are still anti-diaphragm reg despite the time and engineering effort put inot the Mk 17 and it's excellent performance and reliability in the field.

Similarly, the Mk 10,15,20,25 hose routing on doubles is legendary - but as 50 Fathom indicates, my opinion firmly is that the the reg preceded the need for redundant doubles hose routing. The Mk 5 first came out with a 5 port turret in the mid to late 1970's and at the time the cave community was still arguing about the benefits of independent doubles, versus a dual outlet manifold versus the still mythical isolator manifold. As far as I can tell, Sheck was using a 5' primary by then but the modern HOG/DIR hose routing was not common yet.

The Mk 25 and it's ancestors were popular for deep technical diving, and at the time it could have been argued that the diaphragm competition was lacking. Consequently, when the HOG/DIR hose routing scheme became popular, it had to be adapted to that style of end ported flow through balanced piston first stage, and the hose routing scheme was developed to make that first stage useable on doubles with acceptable hose routing, and it thus became a standard. However applying it now as an "ideal" hose routing is badly flawed as while it is clean, it is not that clean, and the hose routing offerred by the Mk 17 (and similar designs with 2 LP ports and 1 HP port per side) where the hoses run straight down is mush cleaner with less clutter and less potential for line trapping. However the old standard continues to be promoted just because it's the old standard.

----

In terms of marketing, the Mk 25 is the flagship first stage and Scu8bapro America packages regs in beginner, intermediate and advanced packages - making divers upgrade the first stage to get features they prefer on the second stage - and vice versa. Also, the dealerr margin is larger on the higher end "advanced" packages so on average, dealers make more money selling a Mk 25 than they do a Mk 17 due to how Scuabpro has structured it's wholesale prices.

I think 50 Fathom is correct that the Mk 19 (and the earlier Mk 18) were not sold in the US to any large extent as it was viewed as a first stage that would have competed directly with the "flagship" Mk 25 - upsetting the carefully constructed marketing/packaging plan, but also giving the diaphragm reg a major role that would have offended Scubapro's old guard long standing dealer base steeped in the "piston is good, diaphragm is evil" dogma.

Now, if you look at Scubapro's UK website, you see the Mk 17 portrayed in a much different light with much more of a flagship role, but that also reflects the lack of piston reg bias.

And if you look on continental European websites in general you see more exposure of unbalanced second stages - like the C200 and C300 that are targeted at meeting a European market that prefers unbalanced seconds on balanced first stages.
 
is there any advantage of unbalanced 2nd on balanced 1st combination, as opposed to balanced 2nd & 1st?
 
I am also a diaphragm guy, I dive a Mk.17 with an A700. I dive cold water, or according to their classification "Extreme Cold Water". I can not see myself using a piston reg as they are not sealed, even if I didn't need the cold water protection in the "water" I dive in I would be afraid of catching something. Also consider Sherwood's sealed piston regs, a club-mate of mine swears by them.
 
So, now that I've decided I want a sealed 1st stage that can handle colder water, and considering all the options out there, warranty, parts for life programs, service intervals, etc, what's the best bang for the buck out there on a 1st stage?

Ideally, I'd like a high quality sealed first stage, diaphram, a 2 year service interval, and easy access to parts should I need it quickly. Can I get all of that? ScubaPro MK17 will have a 1yr service interval, which is the only downside, but it's kind of a bummer in that it's a time waster more than anything.
 
is there any advantage of unbalanced 2nd on balanced 1st combination, as opposed to balanced 2nd & 1st?
There are pros and cons. An unbalanced second stage is perceived as being simpler and that is generally the case. However many of them are fairly low performance.

For example in the distant past Scubapro sold the 109 "Adjustable" second stage and it was unbalanced, and as the name suggests, had an inhalation adjustment knob. It was a high performance second stage in every sense of the word and was still not overly complex. The 108 "High Performance" second stage was an entry level second stage, using an even simpler downstream valve design - but it still offerred inhalation efforts that are hard to match today, and generally aren't in the "entry level" range.

When scubapro balanced the 109 to create the "Balanced Adjustable" it used a balanced poppet that theoretically performs better, but you'll only notice it on an unbalanced first stage. On a balanced first stage, I'd challenge anyone to tell the difference between the two.

The important thing is that all three second stages use the same diameter orifice and wer epowered by a full size diaphragm, and all three were built to very high standards of quality.

In some cases with an unbalanced design, there is a finite limit on the practical orifice size and that can limit performance by limiting flow rate. Also, in general, the working range on a standard downstream valve as used in the 108, R190, R390, etc. is potentially reduced and that again reduces flow rate.

A bigger issue with the less expensive unbalanced second stages (from any company) is that quality control os often less with more generous dimensional tolerances. That means you may get some that breathe very well and other that breathe only so-so.

The C200 and C300 use an approach to an unbalanced second stage that allows a full size orifice and also allows for a large working range for the valve, so flow rates are very good, and the design also appears to deliver very good inhalation efforts. ANd most inmportantly, the QA standards are very high (out of neccesity due to the lever design), so performance should be uniformly good.

Which is to say the answer to the advantages of balanced versus unbalanced seconds is "it depends".

So, now that I've decided I want a sealed 1st stage that can handle colder water, and considering all the options out there, warranty, parts for life programs, service intervals, etc, what's the best bang for the buck out there on a 1st stage?

Ideally, I'd like a high quality sealed first stage, diaphram, a 2 year service interval, and easy access to parts should I need it quickly. Can I get all of that? ScubaPro MK17 will have a 1yr service interval, which is the only downside, but it's kind of a bummer in that it's a time waster more than anything.
It sounds like the free parts program is for all practical purposes dead at the end of the year, so I would not factor that into the equation.

Nearly all regs with a 2 year service interval require an annual inspection and going the second year without a service depends entirley on condition of the reg after the first year. In that regard you can do the same with the Mk 17 and with no free parts program to worry about, the condition of the reg is all that matters. Consequently, if you get it flow tested after 1 year and/or know how to monitor the IP and detect emerging problems, a two year service interval is no big deal with any reg. The Scubapro balanced second stages all demonstrate adequate seat life to go two years with no real issues.

In fact, with Scubapro moving away from the free parts program, I see the largest casualty being annual regulator service as the customers will now have no real incentive to bring the reg in every year for service as opposed to every two years, at least with new regs or with regs where they have missed a year already and lost the free parts program eligibility. The big losers will be shops and the revenue they earn off service work. It will save scubapro money, but it will again screw the local dive shops/dealers.

------

I prefer the Mk 17 due to it's fully sealed performance and I do feel it is the best performing diaphragm reg available. But a diaphragm first stage from Apeks, Aqualung or Zeagle is also very good and if the Mk 17 were not available, I'd be diving something like the Aqualung Legend or the Apeks XTX200 and not feel too bad about it.

I have also been pleased with the Dive Rite 1205 and 1208 first stages and their recent balanced second stages and would not hesitate to use them as well. There are some clones out there, but in general I have not seem the same attention to detail in machining and finish so I won't recommend them even though they look generally similar.

In short, it is hard to go wrong with a quality balanced regulator package.

The exception here is the Sherwood SR1, which is overly complex and has a well deserved reputation for un reliability.
 

Back
Top Bottom