PADI SSI and equipment tie ins

[supergaijin]

People here need to understand the difference between 'full time' and 'part time'.

The shops promoting equipment sales often need to in order to 'survive'; pay stff, rent etc. This is a normal business. Some 'club' shops do not employ full-time staff. They source their main income from elsewhere.

Are these 'clubs' open at 8am on a Tuesday?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Well in my mind it's about credibility. Don't you get a little nervous when a PADI or SSI class becomes vaguely like hearing a pitch to buy a timeshare? Can't we separate them?

Exactly. Dive instruction shouldn't be like having my oil changed at Jiffy Lube where they ask if I also want my air filter replaced, or the "Do you want fries with that?" at McDonalds, etc. I want to pay for an instructor's expertise, and to the extent that the course at issue includes a discussion of gear choices, that discussion should be unbiased. Ideally, an instructor would encourage a student to try several different gear options, though that's not always practical. Dive gear is a major purchase, not a side of fries.

 

[Quero]

From all my SSI and PADI training, I was struck by the 'Sell in' connection between the certification agencies and the Local Dive Shop. Inevitably, we'd get around to required equipment, and within the constructs of the course would be heavy marketing of the local dive shops equipment and the requirement to get some of this equipment.

You are confusing things. There isn't any 'sell-in connection' between certification agencies and equipment manufacturers. Neither agency you named gets any money from the sale of scuba equipment to divers. What you are seeing is that the shops where you are getting your training have links both to the certifying agencies and to one or more manufacturers. That fact does not link the agency and the manufacturer in any formal way at all.

What is stocked in the LDS? Generally High end Scubapro, with all the instructors using the latest scubapro stuff. I started purchasing at LeisurePro in 2005 and generally read people talking crap about them for years on this board. As I've matured as a diver I see a new approach which is an open design backplate, Hogarthian harness, wing from many sources all which work together and can be pieced together and actually work and have superior flexability and way lower cost than the list price high end scubapro BCD. What do I see in my local dive shops? A single High End fully assembled wing under the heading 'tech diver' (OOOH STAY AWAY!).

This has nothing to do with the agencies. LDSs have commercial relationships with the manufacturers they serve as retail outlets for. It's up to each shop to decide what (if any) line to carry.

I'm wondering in the land of LeisurePro, Scuba.com, DiveGearExpress.com, etc. will there be a certifying agency that will focus on training skills and not seem to be an LDS Advertisement? What I know know is that gear that got me to 100 dives was not the gear that I want to keep diving with. I have no need to be upright at the surface in my large BCD when I climb up to a dive boat a wing works just fine, just like the snorkel is too damned confusing if I'm not shore diving.

Certain agencies require particular gear configurations which students must comply with, but they do not necessarily require any particular brand. Again, this isn't an agency thing. It's a dive shop thing.

What would be really cool would be to have a certifying agency encourage students to buy appropriate equipment, and avoid buying equipment that they may regret later; or at least know that their diving styles might change. Wouldn't it be refreshing to have PADI say that it takes 25-50 open water dives to get more and more comfortable with diving and most of the requirements are here to support new divers? Designs like BCD's that hold you upright at the surface are specifically designed for new divers ... In my case, buying a regulator, was a good idea, but I'm not sure buying an air-integrated computer was a good idea. Buying a BC was probably not a good idea I would have been better off renting it or realizing that it was a short term investment

Once more, this is not an agency thing. I am a PADI instructor and I stock very little equipment for sale (masks and fins only), and that equipment is available to students who are having particular trouble with the rental gear. For anything else, I take them shopping until we find exactly what works best for them. I'm almost entirely brand-neutral (with caveats for the accessibility of service for particular brands in some places my students may end up diving).

I REALLY feel like their is too much equipment tie in with the PADI and SSI courses I've taken and while I received good information, but for me, it's like their credibility decreases when we spend time on discussing equipment requirements (by the way this equipment we are mentioning is available at your local dive shop!) In my perfect world, training would be done by associations of divers (like a dive club), and Dive Shops would exist to sell gear.

You're clearly upset about something, and I hope you've got it off your chest and feel better now, but you're targeting the wrong "opponent" here. Having said that, there is a relationship between gear sales and what instructors working through a shop are expected to do (regardless of certifying agency). Since most shops feature equipment sales, it is understandable that the owners, as employers of the instructors of the shop, would want their employees to serve as "living mannequins" for the equipment sold at the shop, regardless of which agency the training is being conducted under and regardless what manufacturer that shop is associated with. And since these instructors may very well earn part of their take home from equipment sales, it's understandable that they will offer the equipment that will help them make ends meet, and yes, during the conduct of the course. It's really hard, probably impossible, to be unbiased.

Maybe you should start your own dive shop with strict divisions between the employees who are instructional staff (prohibited from selling gear) and those who are sales floor staff (prohibited from selling courses). Now how much sense would it make for a store to have double the number of employees it needs since the roles are so clearly delimited? Or to have an instructor, who is sitting *right there wearing a polo shirt emblazoned with the shop's logo* be unable to help out with customers who are waiting, getting more and more irritated at the wait with each passing minute while an obviously uninterested employee sits playing a game on his iPad? Or have a sales associate who is at the counter not be able to answer questions about courses because s/he isn't involved in that side of things and who tells you to come back in later today or tomorrow when the instructor can talk with you? It just wouldn't make business sense.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Maybe the "solution" is to seek out independent instructors who aren't affiliated (or closely affiliated) with a shop. As someone pointed out, they do exist. It presently takes some effort to find them, though, and most people who are looking into taking their first OW course aren't even aware they exist or have a grasp of the potential bias problem with shop-based instruction. But maybe if more people start asking for independent instructors, supply will meet demand (at market price, according to my Econ 101 professor!).

 

[Skittl1321]

All true, but the fact that so many GUE divers use Halcyon doesn't necessarily mean that GUE instructors push Halcyon the way PADI and SSI instructors are said to push the gear that their shops sell.

I took my OW through PADI. I don't recall a single sales pitch the entire class. Gear was never mentioned by brand name, and it was never suggested we should buy our own gear except the required mask, fins, and snorkel. The only specific gear talk I remember is the instructors saying "we all dive BP/W on our own time" in reference to the different rig one of the divemasters was wearing. They also talked about why they like the long hose/primary donation with the bungeed secondary air source; but never pushed a sales pitch or tried to say it was best for everyone. The shop sells Halcyon, and also will rent them (which is nice, as husband wants to try the BP/W set up before purchasing it), but an instructor never told me that.

The only sales pitch I've gotten was from a shop associate while I was looking at gear on the racks; and well, that's their job. Completely separate from my class.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

Interesting discussion. There is no question that certifying shops do so to create new customers. Much more profit is made on selling inventory than in selling classes. I see no problem with the tie in, nor should it be surprising. My LDS carries at least three price levels of most equipment, from snorkels to computers, and is big enough to carry more than three lines in most cases. What a shop should not do is be "closed," requiring students to buy from them. Shop owners and instructors are affiliated with one or more agencies in most cases. My LDS is a PADI outlet. As all pros on scuba board know, they pay for the privilege of being agency affiliated, so I see nothing wrong with a certifying agency recommending student patronize their LDS for equipment. If a shop does not have what you want, most ( including mine) will order it for you. It is very expensive to maintain substantial on site inventory unless you deal in good volume. Buy where you want. On line, down the street, from a friend. But don't be surprised that PADI and SSI and others want to try and keep business "in house." That does not make them evil. That makes them a business, which is what they are, as is your LDS. What I am tired of is students showing up for an advanced open water class who do not own a compass. If you are certifying at that level, you ought to own a compass.
DivemasterDennis

 

[kelly7552]

You are confusing things. There isn't any 'sell-in connection' between certification agencies and equipment manufacturers. Neither agency you named gets any money from the sale of scuba equipment to divers. What you are seeing is that the shops where you are getting your training have links both to the certifying agencies and to one or more manufacturers. That fact does not link the agency and the manufacturer in any formal way at all.

I'm having problems with this; don't Certifying Agencies compete for Dive Shop alliance? I remember SSI turned my old dive shop from PADI about 12 years ago (before they went out of business). Doesn't that mean that both SSI and PADI have to implicitly help the LDS? From the course material in both isn't there a mantra throughout training to 'consult with your local dive shop on any equipment questions you have?'. Your correct in that the agencies don't INSIST that you purchase gear, BUT they compete for LDS business and therefore are stuck in an LDS centered business model.

I'm here in the San Francisco bay area and I'm not seeing a lot of thriving dive shops. Given the disposable income of this area, Dive Shops should be thriving, and yet one of the largest closed, and the others I've visited don't exactly look like they are going gang busters. I read an interesting blog post on experienced Divers versus new divers and really got me thinking about the future of certification agencies and the future of the dive shop. From my perspective the LDS looks like the local bookstore, and yes we love the local bookstore, but amazon is so much easier/cheaper; I think much of the Local Dive Shop business is being 'cored out' by the online retailers. It kind of struck me that Dive Magazines promote gear by responding to manufacturers and Certifying Agencies promote Local Dive Shops, what if the future has many fewer Local Dive Shops?

 

[Quero]

I'm having problems with this; don't Certifying Agencies compete for Dive Shop alliance? I remember SSI turned my old dive shop from PADI about 12 years ago (before they went out of business). Doesn't that mean that both SSI and PADI have to implicitly help the LDS? From the course material in both isn't there a mantra throughout training to 'consult with your local dive shop on any equipment questions you have?'. Your correct in that the agencies don't INSIST that you purchase gear, BUT they compete for LDS business and therefore are stuck in an LDS centered business model.

Well, yes and no. SSI, for example, requires all instructors to affiliate with a dive shop, and those dive shops will have equipment for sale, more often than not. Other agencies, like PADI for example, permit independent instructors (including those in club formats) to conduct training and issue certifications, which is why you've been given some advice about seeking out independents. We independents (myself included) are not affiliated with an agency-registered shop, and some of us, again like me, do not stock equipment for sale at all, but we do need to make money somehow. In my case, it's through sales of dive trips. You'll notice that not only do the materials discuss equipment ownership, but they also discuss (and show in the imagery) travel destinations.

Agency affiliation isn't required of a scuba training facility, but the agencies furnish a good deal of marketing assistance and offer other perks (like discounts on the purchase of instructional materials), so most do affiliate. Shops don't affiliate with the agencies in order to sell equipment, but instead to bring in new customers, usually as student divers, whom the shops hope will ultimately buy equipment or dive outings. That big blue globe with the red scuba diver is instantly recognizable throughout the world and is a strong brand that potential customers (even non-divers) recognize. In fact, prospective students are very often heard to say "I want to get my PADI" or "I just got my PADI" when what they really mean is that they plan to take an Open Water course or have just become Open Water certified. Brand presence matters when you are putting those banners up outside the shop.

Now, because selling equipment is an important source of revenue for dive shops, instructors are expected to help sell. If they don't help sell, then the business may not prosper, and then they are out of jobs. The agencies support this role for the instructor in that the agencies must prepare prospective instructors for multiple roles in a dive operation, one of which is selling. So "implicitly" the agencies do help the LDS by telling instructor candidates to be prepared to sell, even if their main function in the business is bringing new customers to the store by way of the courses they're teaching. As far as the agency is concerned, yes, it is in their best interest for dive shops to be profitable since a busy shop that is drawing in lots of new dive students will help them sell their (the agency's) products (certifications and learning materials). So the agencies are going to be in competition for the most successful shops, and if in order to be successful, instructors (and materials) need to encourage student divers to buy locally rather than from the kinds of online businesses you cite that do not bring the industry new customers that's what you will see in the classes and in the materials. Additionally, instructors are also expected to mention upcoming dive trips that students might be interested in joining. That's a sales pitch in the same way that saying "you can find great gear down at the shop."

I'm here in the San Francisco bay area and I'm not seeing a lot of thriving dive shops. Given the disposable income of this area, Dive Shops should be thriving, and yet one of the largest closed, and the others I've visited don't exactly look like they are going gang busters. I read an interesting blog post on experienced Divers versus new divers and really got me thinking about the future of certification agencies and the future of the dive shop. From my perspective the LDS looks like the local bookstore, and yes we love the local bookstore, but amazon is so much easier/cheaper; I think much of the Local Dive Shop business is being 'cored out' by the online retailers. It kind of struck me that Dive Magazines promote gear by responding to manufacturers and Certifying Agencies promote Local Dive Shops, what if the future has many fewer Local Dive Shops?

We don't know. What if, indeed.

 

[DevonDiver]

I REALLY feel like their is too much equipment tie in with the PADI and SSI courses I've taken

In the industry, it's called the 'Loss Leader' approach. They sell you training at an insanely discounted price (often barely profitable) and hope to recoup some profitability through continued education, equipment sales and dive trips.

It's encouraged by the major agencies, but tends to fail dive shops - especially due to much better holiday/equipment deals being available online. It's killing the industry and serves to lower quality and standards.

But hey, you WANTED a cheap course right?

---------- Post added August 8th, 2013 at 12:49 AM ----------

You are confusing things. There isn't any 'sell-in connection' between certification agencies and equipment manufacturers. Neither agency you named gets any money from the sale of scuba equipment to divers. What you are seeing is that the shops where you are getting your training have links both to the certifying agencies and to one or more manufacturers. That fact does not link the agency and the manufacturer in any formal way at all.

I disagree... but I think the link is far more subtle and insidious.

• Agencies benefit from mass sales (manuals and certifications).
• Agencies also benefit from 'corralling' students through the entry gates, drawn by low prices.
• Mass sales occur from cheap courses
• Cheap courses means Loss Leader to survive
• Loss Leader benefits manufacturers

Everyone wins... except the instructor and the student...

...and, usually, the store/school itself suffers... because Loss Leader ingratiates itself through the entire continued-education process...with cost-cut after cost-cut throughout the syllabus. And then internet retail and holidays kill their last hope for credible profitability..

Say it isn't so... that every page, of every edition of the UJ (the PADI Pro 'rag') isn't a massive 'homage' to Loss Leader mentality...