PADI: Scuba Diver to OW

[Thalassamania]

... Now, I'm all for the extra practice but what was the point of the "Scuba Diver" Cert if I virtually need to take the entire OW course?

Note the OP's actual question.

First of all, congratulations on getting started with diving! You are in for a lifetime of adventure, and you will meet some very interesting people along the way.

Your PADI Scuba Diver cert is NOT useless. Sorry, as a new diver, and member of SB, that you had to be subjected, right from the start, to comments from certain members. You have begun your adventure, and that counts for something!

The PADI Scuba Diver certification can be easily converted to OWD. Your local may not have much experience with that path, but all they have to do is study up on the upgrade path, and fit you in. If the school in Mexico processed your Scuba Diver cert, get back in touch with them and request a referral form. Your local shop, or an independent instructor can easily handle the bit of extra training. Just push them a bit. Insist the local shops do their homework, and the upgrade is quite easy to do.

I assume you want to upgrade, but even if you don't, you can still dive with a DM, or an instructor! You don't have the level anywhere close to diving independently, but you are on your way there. This is a minor stumbling block.

Welcome to the community of divers!

I answered the OP's actual question, rather than stroking him and putting the PADI spin on it, which is disingenuous at best.

Clearly he wants to upgrade, but that was not his question.

 

[azchipka]

What's a matter, trouble handling the truth? Get real, in your rush to be a PADIphile you're just (as most of your type) spouting the party line, but neglecting the reality that the OP is finding out.

Funny part of that is im far from a PADIphile I'm also a TDI, SSI, SDI, and IANTD phile. Although you may see the PADI Scuba Diver cert as useless i see a number of people every year who hold them and are very happy with them.

Its sad that someone who has been given a title that is supposed to ensure confidence in new users they have someone here to help them bashs the hard earned accomplishments of a a user so quickly.

Any certification that gets a person diving is a accomplishment no matter what agency issues it and what title it earns them. Its a start to a great adventure.

 

[Thalassamania]

I answered his question, that is the task. I answered it with the truth and apologized for having to do so, I did not "bash" his accomplishments, I explained the problem, which is what he asked for someone to do, and which you failed to do, you'd rather play the ingenue and tell him that there is no problem ... the OP's not that stupid; and all you can do is call me names, real nice ... Merry Christmas.

 

[azchipka]

and all you can do is call me stupid names, real nice ... Merry Christmas.

As the pot calls the kettle black. Merry Christmas from the "PADIphile".

 

[OceanEd]

Thalassamania:

Just to correct a misconception you have. PADI did not even train instructors until the later 70's. When they started they adopted the policy of accepting already certified instructors from all the other diving organizations such as LA County, NAUI, YMCA, NASS. These instructors would apply to PADI for membership and it would be granted on the strength of their already being trained and certified by the other diving organizations. It drove the others crazy, but there was nothing they could say because all PADI was doing was accepting that the other diving organizations had good instructor training and PADI was recognizing that fact.

So when you say that PADI "swelled their ranks" with poorly trained instructors you are mistaken. I was a NAUI Course Director at the time and attended PADI's very first Course Director's course in Racine, Wisconsin so I think I am accurate with what I am saying.

Back then all the diving organizations only had the Scuba Dvier certification. There was no Open Water Diver certification. That only came later so you have it backwards.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thalassamania:

Just to correct a misconception you have. PADI did not even train instructors until the later 70's. When they started they adopted the policy of accepting already certified instructors from all the other diving organizations such as LA County, NAUI, YMCA, NASS. These instructors would apply to PADI for membership and it would be granted on the strength of their already being trained and certified by the other diving organizations. It drove the others crazy, but there was nothing they could say because all PADI was doing was accepting that the other diving organizations had good instructor training and PADI was recognizing that fact.

So when you say that PADI "swelled their ranks" with poorly trained instructors you are mistaken. I was a NAUI Course Director at the time and attended PADI's very first Course Director's course in Racine, Wisconsin so I think I am accurate with what I am saying.

Back then all the diving organizations only had the Scuba Dvier certification. There was no Open Water Diver certification. That only came later so you have it backwards.

Dear OceanEd,

With all due respect, the people that PADI swelled their ranks with did, in fact, include certified instructors from all the other diving organizations, but they also included anyone who'd send in a check and a letter claiming to have been involved in diver training. This included many junior military types, people who's only credentials were "shop cards," outright frauds, and a fair number of peoples' pets. When diving training fatalities skyrocketed in the late 1970s PADI (without admitting fault) created the "Open Water Instructor," that required an instructor go through some actual training. This change appears to have reversed the then growing training accident problem of the entire industry (how could that be?), and also prevented my Labrador Retriever from training any more divers.

As the pot calls the kettle black. Merry Christmas from the "PADIphile".

Rather different, PADIphile is a fairly well accepted, accurate and playful construct (kinda like swigger of PADI Kool-Aide), stroke is a clear out and out deprecation and dismissal. But nice try at changing the subject, which remains the OP's question, that I tried answered to the best of my ability and you have all but ignored. What is was the point of the "Scuba Diver" Cert if the instructors he's talked to automatically think that he, "virtually needs to take the entire OW course?" What is it that could possibly make the instructors feel that way?

 

[OceanEd]

Thal:

No question that there were incidents of people who became certified through this program who should not have been, but it was few in comparison to the whole. It was also not intentional.

Diver accidents in the 70's went up because all the diving organizations were finally making the transition from being focused only on young, fit, men to focusing on the population as a whole and trying to make diving "mainstream". To counter the accident problem all the organizations got together to create the NSTC which agreed on a uniform set of basic standards for teaching diving that they would all follow. As they got better and better at this, the diver accident ratio went down and is still extremely low.

During the time that the diving accident rate went up, PADI was the smallest of the main diving organizations in the USA so you should not point to them as if they created the accident problem. Also, their members at time were insructors trained by NAUI, LA County, etc. not trained by PADI to teach divers. So the instructor training that PADI instructors had was not PADI's.

PADI then decided to create the first complete diver training course. When we did it, we called it the Open Water Diver course instead of a Scuba Diver course. It was the first course to have complete course materials to help instructors teach a uniform course. This is when PADI started training their own instructors to be Open Water Instructors. This concept was eventually copied by every other diving organization and it contributed greatly to the diving industry finally being able to control what was being taught.

Many instructors refused to follow the new Open Water standards and we actually kicked them out of PADI.

I am not sure why you are so negative towards PADI. We are both long time experienced divers but we are coming at this from opposite ends. I was with PADI in their formative years as well as a Course Director and training instructors for NAUI. I was the only Course Directio I know of who was training instructors for both organizations until they created the rule that said you have to choose which one to represent.

We both know that all the diving organizations now have good, solid diving programs and do a good job of training instructors. The key is that it is the instructor who makes the course or breaks the course, no matter who's course he/she is teaching.

In the long run I still come back to the fact that diving accident statistics are extremely low now and this is when PADI is training over half of the divers in the world today.

 

[boulderjohn]

I also did all the UW skills from the book including those from Ch 4 and 5, both in the pool and on the 2 OW dives.

...another just the "second day" and 2 OW dives BUT retake the entire written test. They said I could audit the first day of the OW if I wanted.

Now, I'm all for the extra practice but what was the point of the "Scuba Diver" Cert if I virtually need to take the entire OW course?

I'm not at all clear on why you see what the second shop wants you to do as virtually requiring you to take the entire OW course.

• You will not have to repeat your academic instruction, assuming you still know the material.
• You will not have to repeat the first basic skills portion of the confined water class.
• If you still know the material, you should be able to pass the entire exam.
• If you don't know the material well enough to pass the entire exam, then by all means you should take them up on their offer to audit the first day of classes. Do you want to do your diving without that important knowledge?

It seems to me that this shop is only making a check to see if you have retained your knowledge portion required for Scuba Diver in addition to what you did not complete in that class. The also want to see what you can do in the pool before they take you into open water. It is a prudent thing to do on their part.

By the way, part of their concern may be your statement that you did all the UW skills in the 2 open water dives. That is a standards violation, and they may therefore want to check to make sure that other standards were not violated.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your wording, but it almost seems as if you are afraid that they will catch you not knowing certain things or not being able to do certain skills. I hope that is a misinterpretation. I hope you want instead to be sure you have that knowledge and skill yourself.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal:

No question that there were incidents of people who became certified through this program who should not have been, but it was few in comparison to the whole. It was also not intentional.

That maybe your spin on it, but that not what Cronin said to me on several occasions (e.g., John used to laugh that, "The money people pay to certify their pets goes right into my pocket.").

Diver accidents in the 70's went up because all the diving organizations were finally making the transition from being focused only on young, fit, men to focusing on the population as a whole and trying to make diving "mainstream". To counter the accident problem all the organizations got together to create the NSTC which agreed on a uniform set of basic standards for teaching diving that they would all follow. As they got better and better at this, the diver accident ratio went down and is still extremely low.

That's the revisionist party line, but it's simply not true. Additionally, I was addressing training fatalities, not the entire accident problem. It was interesting to note that with the advent of PADI's Open Water Diver class the number of TRAINING FATALITIES dropped, whilst none of the other agencies made sweeping changes in their programs.

We both know that the Underwater Society of America's chairmanship of the Z-86 Committee goes way back before the NSTC.

During the time that the diving accident rate went up, PADI was the smallest of the main diving organizations in the USA so you should not point to them as if they created the accident problem. Also, their members at time were insructors trained by NAUI, LA County, etc. not trained by PADI to teach divers. So the instructor training that PADI instructors had was not PADI's.

You are neglecting the sizable number of people who became PADI instructors based on "shop certifications," marginal contract with diver training in the military, or just by writing a letter that claimed they had diver training experience (I can point you to some rather well known divers who became instructors that way, with NO OTHER CREDENTIALS).

PADI then decided to create the first complete diver training course. When we did it, we called it the Open Water Diver course instead of a Scuba Diver course. It was the first course to have complete course materials to help instructors teach a uniform course. This is when PADI started training their own instructors to be Open Water Instructors. This concept was eventually copied by every other diving organization and it contributed greatly to the diving industry finally being able to control what was being taught.

PADI Open Water Diver was hardly the FIRST complete diver training course. There were lots of them out there (even ignoring what Stewart, Austin, Somers, Egstrom, Duffy, Damico, Hendricks, Divens, et.al., were doing) well before PADI cleaned up its act. It was not even, in fact, the first agency to recognize the profitability of "complete course materials," I think that NASDS beat them to that punch. We part company also on the idea that it is a good thing for divers for: "diving industry finally being able to control what was being taugh." I think that was a great step backward, putting the fox in charge of the hen house so-to-speak.

Many instructors refused to follow the new Open Water standards and we actually kicked them out of PADI.

I am not sure why you are so negative towards PADI. We are both long time experienced divers but we are coming at this from opposite ends. I was with PADI in their formative years as well as a Course Director and training instructors for NAUI. I was the only Course Director I know of who was training instructors for both organizations until they created the rule that said you have to choose which one to represent.

Once again, despite the time you've been at it, you are showing your lack of background ... just off the top of my head I can tell you that Lee Somers was offering both NAUI and PADI Instructor certifications at the University of Michigan ITCs.

We both know that all the diving organizations now have good, solid diving programs and do a good job of training instructors. The key is that it is the instructor who makes the course or breaks the course, no matter who's course he/she is teaching.

Please, speak for yourself. We do not both know that. In fact, there are a lot of folks, not just me, who'd say that's a bunch of crap. Within the confines of a rigid single agency like PADI's, sure, it's the instructor. And sure, there are instructors in less lock-step organizations that don't do any better than their PADI colleagues, because they only teach the bare minimum. But I'm fairly confident that the inclusion of rescue skills, gas management topics, and a plethroa or other items makes for a better course as opposed to the alternative of, "oh ... I'm sorry, buoyancy control? That's a separately priced product!"

In the long run I still come back to the fact that diving accident statistics are extremely low now and this is when PADI is training over half of the divers in the world today.

Diving accidents are low because it is, in reality, fairly hard to hurt yourself diving and fairly to easy to learn to dive (even badly). I leaned from my Dad while he read the book, back when I was six ... it's just not that hard. But, by the same token, the number of bodies that wash up on the beach is not, at least in my mind, the measure we should be looking at.

 

[sdiver68]

Forgive me if I misunderstood your wording, but it almost seems as if you are afraid that they will catch you not knowing certain things or not being able to do certain skills. I hope that is a misinterpretation. I hope you want instead to be sure you have that knowledge and skill yourself.

Nah, not worried at all. Like I said, I'm all for the practice. :snorkel2:

My post is more like a cautionary tale. If at all possible get your OW at once, or you'll do (most of) it twice!