PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[fldiver1]

I dive alot of diff. spots here in Florida where there are ALWAYS classes going on. Some inst. do thier pool work at these place also. I have to say, I have seen NUMEROUS diff. instructors not even give the students a swim test or tread water test. I use the word NUMEROUS because I could name more than 10 diff. schools/instr. Actually name that many plus others I don't know. I think the swim/tread portion of requirements is set at a reasonable level. I just wish instr. would use it. I personally don't think that about 75% of the people who are getting c-cards these days should be out in open water yet. I agree that experience is better than classroom/pool training sometimes but I also think that instr. should absolutely drill into students brains the basic survival/emergency drill procedures alot more than they do. For instance, I dove a few weeks ago with a few guys who just got thier OW the week before. I was with a friend who had just gotten his the week prior also. My friend was asking me on the way down to the entry point about some of the drills/skills and what he should "really" practice. I told him ALL of them. The other guys with us had no idea what skills we were talking about. We discussed this for a while and found out that thier instr. showed the basic stuff and let them do the check dives. That was it!!! I ended up going over some emergency skills with them on the surface and then had them do it themselves. They said that they would practice till proficient with them bu thwo knows. Back to the point, I think the standards are fine with most of the agencies out there. AS LONG AS THE INSTRUCTORS WOULD JUST ENFORCE THEM AND USE THEM PROPERLY!! No finger pointing, you other instr. Please dont burn me for this, I know some of you do things right. But alot dont!

 

[SparticleBrane]

Then give them absolute guidelines that are clear to the students in the course material. Mine are 450 yds swimming in 14 mins or less prior to entry into the class, 900 yds in freediving gear in 20 mins or less prior to going on scuba, and a 350 yd skill based circuit swim in 12 mins or less prior to course completion. People can float or tread all they want on their own time.

I like your standards, Thal.
Last night, in accordance with NAUI AI training standards, I had to do the 450 swim and 900 in skin-diving gear. If one paces themselves, these aren't particularly hard skills. I believe I did the 450 in ~9:24 and the 900 in ~17:20.

For our open water classes, on the first day or two we usually have the swim test. It's comprised of "swim until I say stop", treading water for ~10 minutes with the last minute or two having your hands out of the water, and a 25-yard underwater swim.

I've posted it before, but I'll post it again for those who haven't seen it.
The 1200 yard swim/kick/scuba test required for my OW course--
400-yard swim, starting off with a 25-yard underwater swim + 375 front crawl.
Without resting or hanging on the side, pull your skin diving gear in the water and kick/snorkel 400 yards, the first 25 of which is an underwater kick.
Again, without resting or hanging on the side, pull your scuba gear in the water and put it on. Kick 100-yards underwater on scuba with your mask on the back of your head (eyes open), then clear your mask and put it on, kick another 100-yards underwater. Surface and kick 200 yards, breathing from your snorkel in full scuba gear.
Students must touch the side at each end of the pool but are not allowed to touch the top (the deck), as this constitutes hanging on the wall...there are no walls in the ocean... At no point are the students allowed to hang on the sides, even while putting on skin/scuba gear. This of course means that all skin/scuba gear must be on the deck next to the pool so the students can easily pull it into the pool (gotta be careful when pulling scuba gear into the pool though...don't want to bust a tile!)

 

[OHGoDive]

And I suggested that if give them absolute guidelines, (e.g., swim x yard in y minutes without either standing on the bottom or holding on to the side for more than two seconds during each turn). That takes away any leniency and puts into the realm of a clear violation.

I'm curious. At the point of completion of the swim test, what can you extrapolate to potential diving ability? Is it more to simply weed out those who should not be diving, or are there more subtle distinctions that you can make?

The reason I ask is because my two sons swim competitively. My youngest, at 14, can swim a 500 yard freestyle in a bit over 5 minutes. My oldest is a sprinter, but has no problem keeping up with his younger sibling.

Their father, alas, no longer can compete with them, time wise. I could complete your time test, but it would be significantly closer to the upper limit than these two. But, if you had the three of us in a class, would the differences matter to you at that point, given the ravages of aging, or would you simply feel we were all "teachable".

I guess what I'm asking is, what can someones swimming ability really tell you about a potential diver. Or is it more an issue of comfort, overall fitness, and ability to deal with stress? (Although my sons were not stressed in the least by PADI's swimming tests, nor would they be by yours).

(For extra credit, given that we just crossed paths in the fitness/obesity thread, how many divers certified at 20 something do you think could still pass the swimming standards in their 50's, and, do you think it matters?)

 

[pir8]

I think its just a matter of chest thumping.




Watch out for the flaming arrows on that one

 

[dl348]

Pir8 you're with Blue Horizons right???

 

[Surelyshirly]

Pir8 "I think its just a matter of chest thumping.




Watch out for the flaming arrows on that one"




agreed

 

[OHGoDive]

I like your standards, Thal.
Last night, in accordance with NAUI AI training standards, I had to do the 450 swim and 900 in skin-diving gear. If one paces themselves, these aren't particularly hard skills. I believe I did the 450 in ~9:24 and the 900 in ~17:20.

For our open water classes, on the first day or two we usually have the swim test. It's comprised of "swim until I say stop", treading water for ~10 minutes with the last minute or two having your hands out of the water, and a 25-yard underwater swim.

I've posted it before, but I'll post it again for those who haven't seen it.
The 1200 yard swim/kick/scuba test required for my OW course--
400-yard swim, starting off with a 25-yard underwater swim + 375 front crawl.
Without resting or hanging on the side, pull your skin diving gear in the water and kick/snorkel 400 yards, the first 25 of which is an underwater kick.
Again, without resting or hanging on the side, pull your scuba gear in the water and put it on. Kick 100-yards underwater on scuba with your mask on the back of your head (eyes open), then clear your mask and put it on, kick another 100-yards underwater. Surface and kick 200 yards, breathing from your snorkel in full scuba gear.
Students must touch the side at each end of the pool but are not allowed to touch the top (the deck), as this constitutes hanging on the wall...there are no walls in the ocean... At no point are the students allowed to hang on the sides, even while putting on skin/scuba gear. This of course means that all skin/scuba gear must be on the deck next to the pool so the students can easily pull it into the pool (gotta be careful when pulling scuba gear into the pool though...don't want to bust a tile!)

Ok, strenous, no doubt. But, in all seriousness, you don't really think this should be required for the generic recreational diver, do you?

I think there are limits to which it simply doesn't make much sense to test people past. If the tasks your training them to perform truly requires this sort of stamina and fitness level, then by all means, test to it. Otherwise... be realistic about what you're training people to do, and then set the standard to that level.

 

[pir8]

Pir8 you're with Blue Horizons right???

Not really, I have done some things with them but I actually teach for Divers Two in NJ. Also do some independant stuff on my side of the river.

 

[Lehmann108]

Yes... but Ive seen that standard not being enforced.

Then, of course, that is a crappy instructor who is passing people who could then be at much greater risk of harming themselves and others in the water.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

I'm all for raising the standards, but I have to agree with OHGoDive:

I think there are limits to which it simply doesn't make much sense to test people past. If the tasks your training them to perform truly requires this sort of stamina and fitness level, then by all means, test to it. Otherwise... be realistic about what you're training people to do, and then set the standard to that level.

Thalassamania, maybe you can share again, on this thread, who you're training, and why you are so demanding?

I can certainly agree with your training in your circumstances, but would be interested in hearing why you are promoting this kind of training for the average OW diver?

And SparticleBrane, I don't know the NAUI standards, but I'm betting that you are exceeding it. Would you care to outline how your test compares to the standard?