PADI Rescue Diver Curriculum Question

[Andyinbp]

If your student will panic and die in an OOA situation, wouldn't you rather it happen while you're there to intervene?

I can see the value of this in confined water where the variables are under control and the student needs to stay aware that something may happen as well as close to his buddy for the duration, all good protocol. But I think the OP was saying this was an OW drill which, imho, borders on being negligent on the instructor's part and unecessarily risky for the student.



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[Hawkwood]

...
I can see the value of this in confined water where the variables are under control and the student needs to stay aware that something may happen as well as close to his buddy for the duration, all good protocol...

My air was turned off "unannounced" to me once by an Instructor in the pool. My reaction? I swam up the five feet to the surface (15 foot pool). That would be my "natural" reaction in that situation - I am in five feet of water. Why would I go through all that to "share air"? A nano-second and I am at the surface. It's not "realistic".

I was chastised for not sharing air...I was pissed for it happening...she was told why I went up.

 

[Neilwood]

My air was turned off "unannounced" to me once by an Instructor in the pool. My reaction? I swam up the five feet to the surface (15 foot pool). That would be my "natural" reaction in that situation - I am in five feet of water. Why would I go through all that to "share air"? A nano-second and I am at the surface. It's not "realistic".

I was chastised for not sharing air...I was pissed for it happening...she was told why I went up.

Exactly what I would have done as well. Can't think of any reason not to. As for air sharing at that depth?? Seriously???

Now if you had been briefed about it and told you should air share etc, then fair enough.

 

[Andyinbp]

Exactly what I would have done as well. Can't think of any reason not to. As for air sharing at that depth?? Seriously???

Now if you had been briefed about it and told you should air share etc, then fair enough.

Precisely. I'd probably do the same at that depth if unwarned . However, the original OP was saying this was part of a PADI RD course - my response was to say that there is no such requirement and that, if anything, it is overly risky for the value that he could extract from it. The only use I could "potentially" see, would be to pre-warn that it may happen within a confined water environment in order to improve an awareness of buddy distance..? - But that's a stretch. If any of my instructors turned off my air back when I was doing RD without warning me, I'd be pretty pissed off.

 

[Skulmoski]

First, many thanks for all who replied. I contacted the Course Director and shared my concerns. He agreed that turning off air was both risky and not part of the PADI curriculum for RD. I also told him that when we learned CPR we did not stop someone's heart to practice CPR; instead, we simulated the medical situation. The Course Director is investigating.

Regards

GJS

 

[boulderjohn]

In a long article detailing the history of NAUI, NAUI founder Al Tillman talked about the major session in Houston in 1960 that led to the formation of the agency. In that session, people who had been instructing scuba before there were certifying agencies gathered in that city to work on techniques and help identify the standards that would be used for instruction. Tillman himself had learned to instruct at the Scripps Institute, where he learned so that he could use their methods to form the Los Angeles County program. In his description of the session, he talks about how surprised his group was to see some of the instructors harassing students by pulling off masks and shutting off tanks. It was clear to me in that article that those practices were done by a minority of instructors in those days, and many instructors, including Tillman, did not approve of it.

The reason I bring that up is that you often read people on ScubaBoard talking about how this was done in their instruction years ago, and they clearly believe it was a normal part of instruction back in the good old days when scuba instruction was so much better than it is today. The truth is, though, that if it happened to them, it was a choice by their instructors and not a normal and approved part of scuba instruction.

When I started technical instruction, it was done routinely to me and the rest of the students in my group. One day my buddy's air was shut off, and I donated my long hose to him and put my alternate in my mouth. Nothing. I realized that before he shut my buddy's air off, my instructor must have shut off the air to my alternate to simulate a left post roll off. (There had been no warning about this as a possibility.) I reached back and turned on the valve. No problem. A couple months later that instructor did the same thing with another pair of divers, but the diver with the left post roll off did not respond as I had. He panicked and bolted to the surface, thus yanking the donated hose out of the mouth of the OOA victim. This gave the instructor the opportunity to berate the one for his panicked bolt to the surface and the other for not having a firm grip on the donated hose. On the other hand, it could have just as easily given him the opportunity to deal with two dead students.

I teach technical diving now. Although I may well have become a somewhat better diver for having my air shut off on occasion, I will not ever shut the air off for one of my students. The marginal benefit it may (or may not) provide is not worth the risk.

 

[Neilwood]

In a long article detailing the history of NAUI, NAUI founder Al Tillman talked about the major session in Houston in 1960 that led to the formation of the agency. In that session, people who had been instructing scuba before there were certifying agencies gathered in that city to work on techniques and help identify the standards that would be used for instruction. Tillman himself had learned to instruct at the Scripps Institute, where he learned so that he could use their methods to form the Los Angeles County program. In his description of the session, he talks about how surprised his group was to see some of the instructors harassing students by pulling off masks and shutting off tanks. It was clear to me in that article that those practices were done by a minority of instructors in those days, and many instructors, including Tillman, did not approve of it.

The reason I bring that up is that you often read people on ScubaBoard talking about how this was done in their instruction years ago, and they clearly believe it was a normal part of instruction back in the good old days when scuba instruction was so much better than it is today. The truth is, though, that if it happened to them, it was a choice by their instructors and not a normal and approved part of scuba instruction.

When I started technical instruction, it was done routinely to me and the rest of the students in my group. One day my buddy's air was shut off, and I donated my long hose to him and put my alternate in my mouth. Nothing. I realized that before he shut my buddy's air off, my instructor must have shut off the air to my alternate to simulate a left post roll off. (There had been no warning about this as a possibility.) I reached back and turned on the valve. No problem. A couple months later that instructor did the same thing with another pair of divers, but the diver with the left post roll off did not respond as I had. He panicked and bolted to the surface, thus yanking the donated hose out of the mouth of the OOA victim. This gave the instructor the opportunity to berate the one for his panicked bolt to the surface and the other for not having a firm grip on the donated hose. On the other hand, it could have just as easily given him the opportunity to deal with two dead students.

I teach technical diving now. Although I may well have become a somewhat better diver for having my air shut off on occasion, I will not ever shut the air off for one of my students. The marginal benefit it may (or may not) provide is not worth the risk.

I wonder how such an instructor would be able to justify how action in court because that is where his actions could surely end up.

 

[Skulmoski]

Update: I spoke to the Course Director and after speaking to the other students in the class, the instructor and assistant instructor, he has initiated a course of action that includes:
1) 3 day suspension of the instructor
2) Shift of duties to teach entry level courses
3) Have a more senior instructor supervise his teaching for the short term

I recommended that I hoped the instructor would have time to reflect and that he and the course director have a discussion about PADI standards and the rationale behind following a prescribed curricula.

What do you think? Yay or Nay?

GJS

 

[Neilwood]

Update: I spoke to the Course Director and after speaking to the other students in the class, the instructor and assistant instructor, he has initiated a course of action that includes:
1) 3 day suspension of the instructor
2) Shift of duties to teach entry level courses
3) Have a more senior instructor supervise his teaching for the short term

I recommended that I hoped the instructor would have time to reflect and that he and the course director have a discussion about PADI standards and the rationale behind following a prescribed curricula.

What do you think? Yay or Nay?

GJS

Sounds like the course director has taken your concerns seriously and hopefully the instructor has time to re-read the standards!

 

[jonhall]

Update: I spoke to the Course Director and after speaking to the other students in the class, the instructor and assistant instructor, he has initiated a course of action that includes:
1) 3 day suspension of the instructor
2) Shift of duties to teach entry level courses
3) Have a more senior instructor supervise his teaching for the short term

I recommended that I hoped the instructor would have time to reflect and that he and the course director have a discussion about PADI standards and the rationale behind following a prescribed curricula.

What do you think? Yay or Nay?

GJS

Regarding your recommendation, as an ex school teacher and in general, I give this a nay. I think some of the best teachers take opportunities to go above and beyond their prescribed curriculum. Was glad to be able to retire a few years ago before I would have had to strictly adhere to common core standards. If I had my class doing a lab activity on photosynthesis and leaf respiration (let's say in my prescribed curriculum) in which we went outside and bagged some leaves in a wooded area, should I get reprimanded because I found a teaching moment by looking up and seeing a jet con trail that led to a discussion in weather predictors and folklore (not in my curriculum?)

I've always looked at standards as a minimum of what should be taught, although today, teachers better follow the curricula and standards in their school or else get suspended, be forced to teach a different course, or be supervised for weeks on end!!!!!! Just kidding.

Having said that, a life threatening event does require some intervention. I would go with a discussion with the course director about how they cover their material for the course.