padi qualification by aquadives - ambergris

[sharky63]

I returned 1 week ago from Belize after 4 weeks holiday in central america. I'm very new to diving and decided on the spot to get my padi open water license on ambergris caye. It happened to be aquadives. Friendly and helpful owner and selection perhaps only based because it was near our hotel and we saw many divers around here. Still after doing the course I have some questions about the quality of this company. Below an outline of the experiences and I welcome some feedback from more experienced divers.
The whole course took 2 days: half a day looking at all videos lessons, in the afternoon immediately to ho chan or whatever it's named, which I already knew from snorkeling. Excellent place to start with some initial practice. No problem at all with this and we proceeded with a dive into deeper water.
Next day we did 2 dives at the east part of the reef (mayan princess and esmeralda if I remember well). Very nice, but also very rough for an unexperienced diver: the waves are high (partly due to some extra wind) and especially getting into the bouncing boat after the dive is tricky. Several divers were seasick. Maximum depth went below 18 m by the way... Afternoon exam et voila.
The whole study of theory of divetables I had to do on my own during the evening before. There was no testing if I had understood this well. Aquadives didn't have padi manuals in stock, so I had to lend their old copy with a divetable method consisting of plastic movable circles. A bit strange, because at the exam another person used the tables now commonly in use with another old book. I bought the manual in Mexico and now know about both systems. It looks as if this circular chart is no longer in use, or is it?
Problematic was the final closing of the course. They didn't enter my details into the padi database, but because I wanted to make some dives during the following days in mexico- cozumel, I wanted to have some evidence that I actually had an open water license. So, I got a copy of the padi entry form which they promised to enter in the padi system and asked for a stamp of there company.
This copy I took to an excellent dive organisation in playa del carmen. They were flabbergasted about how aquadives had done this course and why they hadn't entered the details into the database even after almost 3 days. Usually a diver gets a printout of the website entry. They contacted padi and wrote to aquadives and arranged everything for me on the spot, so I could do a few excellent dives near cozumel (very relaxed after belize experiences).
I don't know if the 5 stars of a padi logo has a certain meaning (are there 2 or 3 star companies?), but it's not clear to me how aquadives is able to use it. At least a decent pile of manuals should be in stock after what I saw is the case in playa del carmen (even in many languages!)
I tried to find exact prerequisites for an open water course, padi quality rules for padi certification, but could not find them. Anybody a link?

 

[peterbj7]

A few comments. I don't know how it's possible to do a PADI Open Water course from scratch in two days. I take a minimum of three. Are you sure it was "Open Water" and not "Scuba Diver"?

Next, we've had some fairly rough weather recently and if you hit that then I think diving outside the reef at all might have been marginal. I wouldn't have wanted to take students out there. But remember, your perception as a beginner may be that the waves are bigger than an experienced diver would see them.

The OW course includes four dives. The first two should not be deeper than 12 mtr, the last two not deeper than 18 mtr. If it was in fact the SD course you did then the two dives in that course are limited to 12 mtr. Do you know how much deeper than 18 mtr you went? If it was on a dive whose maximum was in fact 18 mtr, it's possible the instructor took you slightly deeper to get out of the surge we often have in rough conditions. A breach of Standards certainly, but to my mind preferable to being buffetted back and forth by the surge.

PADI courses are designed for there to be as much self-study as possible, but a responsible instructor should ensure you have actually taken the material on board. You don't mention Knowledge Reviews - these are designed to reveal areas of uncertainty. Did you do those? One after each of the five chapters of the book?

On the manual, it is true that there is a shortage in Belize of PADI materials. Theoretically unacceptable, right, but a consequence largely of very unsympathetic and unpredictable Belize Customs arrangements. That said, there's no excuse for not supplying you with correct current materials. I have a small stock of them and could have supplied them had I been asked - I know AQD well.

Regardless of anything else, there are two ways to complete the course paperwork. One is to complete a large card sheet with all information about the course content. There is a tear-off section at the bottom which you keep as a temporary certification card; the rest of the card you take away with you and mail to PADI with a photograph. Until you do that and PADI receive it they have never heard of you. From what you say this method wasn't followed.

The other method, certainly more common in Belize, is to enter all the relevant details directly into PADI's online system together with an electronic photograph of you, and from it to print an A4/Letter sheet that the instructor signs that constitutes your temporary certification "card". The advantage of this system is that PADI know about you immediately, and although they haven't yet issued your card or even assigned you a student number they have already certified you.

It sounds as if neither route was followed, which is frankly irregular. It could (well) be that they are using a freelance instructor who is sloppy in - well, everything - but they should have been monitoring what he did. Thinking about it this is probably the root of the whole issue. Can you PM me the name of your instructor please? I take it you asked to see and were shown his instructor card?

It sounds to me that there were sufficient question marks over your course that you should ask PADI what they think. There is a simple procedure for this. The easiest way to start is to email qa@padi.com and they will guide you through all that they need to know. I'd do this anyway, because even if they conclude (unlikely) that the main problem is that you misunderstood what was being provided the shop is still deficient in not talking to you more.

 

[Downing]

Sharky, welcome to scuba diving and the scuba board.

Just as you probably suspected, there are no 2 or 3 PADI shops. It's 5 stars or nothing. I'm not privvy to what exactly makes for a 5 star shop, but I'm pretty sure it's all about marketing and nothing else.

Kind of silly, really.

I was certfied in Portland in 2005. If I remember right, it was a once a week course for four or five weeks, with about an hour or so devoted to classroom materials followed by another hour or so in the pool. But before we jumped in the pool we had to hand in our quiz sheets from the week before and go over the answers as a group. We also had to hand in a xerox copy of the little mini quizzes in each chapter to show that we had actually read and answered the questions. We had a final exam at the end of the four or five weeks, which you were required to pass before you could move on to the final phase: four open water dives over a weekend to demonstrate proficiency in all the basic skills we had learned in the class/pool sessions. The first three dives were graded. The final dive, while required, was just for fun.

At that point, I got my cert card, which I considered to be a license to kill myself. More precisely, I got some sort of temporary card, I think, and the laminated card came in the mail a few weeks later.

I'm pretty sure my PADI Open Water certification experience is the norm in the United States.

I got my nitrox certification two years ago in Belize. This is all classroom stuff since once you're in the water the experience is the same as diving with regular air. I didn't get to keep the book, so I bought one when I returned home and was a little surprised to see that it was a newer edition than the one I used in Belize. The basic info was pretty much the same, though.

Hey, it only gets better from here, right?

 

[Gaz]

Getting Padi Materials in Belize is not difficult for the many many years I was living and teaching there I would order Padi books and Pic envelopes and never had an issue with Customs in fact teaching materials were duty free as educational materials.

The reality of why many shops dont stock books is the cost, its expensive to stock lets say 10 Padi books and 10 PIC envelopes so most shops would purchase from another dive shop that could afford to stock them if they did not have any you get to borrow a beat up Padi manual to study with.

Now with a 5 STAR certified Padi shop there is no excuse not to have been provided the correct materials to study with.

As for a 2 day certification course as Peter said cant be done properly.

My thoughts are well documented on Aqua Dives on this forum and there is no need to for me to keep beating



any longer.

Gaz Cooper

 

[peterbj7]

It has become very hard lately to get PADI materials in Belize. I no longer import them so I don't have first hand knowledge, but judging by the number of people I know who usually import them and appear to have stopped there really is a problem. The last load I imported I was charged 50% import duty despite them being educational material etc. At one fell swoop they cost me more than I could possibly sell them for. Not much incentive to bring more in.

 

[sharky63]

A few comments. I don't know how it's possible to do a PADI Open Water course from scratch in two days. I take a minimum of three. Are you sure it was "Open Water" and not "Scuba Diver"?

Next, we've had some fairly rough weather recently and if you hit that then I think diving outside the reef at all might have been marginal. I wouldn't have wanted to take students out there. But remember, your perception as a beginner may be that the waves are bigger than an experienced diver would see them.

The OW course includes four dives. The first two should not be deeper than 12 mtr, the last two not deeper than 18 mtr. If it was in fact the SD course you did then the two dives in that course are limited to 12 mtr. Do you know how much deeper than 18 mtr you went? If it was on a dive whose maximum was in fact 18 mtr, it's possible the instructor took you slightly deeper to get out of the surge we often have in rough conditions. A breach of Standards certainly, but to my mind preferable to being buffetted back and forth by the surge.

PADI courses are designed for there to be as much self-study as possible, but a responsible instructor should ensure you have actually taken the material on board. You don't mention Knowledge Reviews - these are designed to reveal areas of uncertainty. Did you do those? One after each of the five chapters of the book?

On the manual, it is true that there is a shortage in Belize of PADI materials. Theoretically unacceptable, right, but a consequence largely of very unsympathetic and unpredictable Belize Customs arrangements. That said, there's no excuse for not supplying you with correct current materials. I have a small stock of them and could have supplied them had I been asked - I know AQD well.

Regardless of anything else, there are two ways to complete the course paperwork. One is to complete a large card sheet with all information about the course content. There is a tear-off section at the bottom which you keep as a temporary certification card; the rest of the card you take away with you and mail to PADI with a photograph. Until you do that and PADI receive it they have never heard of you. From what you say this method wasn't followed.

The other method, certainly more common in Belize, is to enter all the relevant details directly into PADI's online system together with an electronic photograph of you, and from it to print an A4/Letter sheet that the instructor signs that constitutes your temporary certification "card". The advantage of this system is that PADI know about you immediately, and although they haven't yet issued your card or even assigned you a student number they have already certified you.

It sounds as if neither route was followed, which is frankly irregular. It could (well) be that they are using a freelance instructor who is sloppy in - well, everything - but they should have been monitoring what he did. Thinking about it this is probably the root of the whole issue. Can you PM me the name of your instructor please? I take it you asked to see and were shown his instructor card?

It sounds to me that there were sufficient question marks over your course that you should ask PADI what they think. There is a simple procedure for this. The easiest way to start is to email qa@padi.com and they will guide you through all that they need to know. I'd do this anyway, because even if they conclude (unlikely) that the main problem is that you misunderstood what was being provided the shop is still deficient in not talking to you more.

Thanks for the extensive answer. First: yes, it is open water and not scuba diver.
I understand that an experience diver will have a different perception on rough conditions. It takes more to get me afraid, I'm mountaineering instructor and climbing overhanging rockwalls. Point is that from an educational point of view I would not take unexperienced people into this kind of situations, because there is a possibility that they don't like it and will stop diving altogether. It is fun and it should stay like that, right?
Indeed this course should have taken more time and more testing of my knowledge, especially theoretical knowledge. The lack of manuals is annoying but not severe in my opinion.
Yes, I read the manual, although it's a lot for doing this in 2 days including studying dive profiles etc. Aquadives had in mind that 4 ow dives can be combined with the exercises in ow, which are normally done in a pool or whatever. This is fine with me, although the total diving time is reduced this way of course.
The email to quality assurance of padi was a route also suggested by the diveshop in playa. It's something I will perhaps do.
sorry, I don't want to give the instructors name on this forum. I got a few padi numbers which includes him I think.

 

[Gaz]

Are you saying you did not do any pool training or confined water training and did everything at Hol chan ????

Gaz

 

[sharky63]

yep. There is no pool or they do not have access to it. For me it was no problem. I had done a pool dive before, although I never mentioned it.

 

[Gaz]

Well I think both Peter and I will agree that there is obviously a MAJOR problem with the way you were trained and issued a certification card as it would seem confirmed by you that many standards were broken during your certification course. sa

At the same time I am not sure how much you paid but you were ripped off as I believe you completed maybe 1/4 of the complete course and missed out on a lot of valuable safety information.

Gaz

 

[peterbj7]

How much of your dealings once the course was agreed upon were with AquaDives management and how many just with your instructor? Because management well know how the course should be conducted, and I have seen it being conducted apparently correctly there. It seems to me they have placed a lot of unwarranted faith in an incompetent instructor, who should be stopped before he kills someone. As you are already an instructor in a potentially dangerous sport you must understand this. PLEASE report this matter with no further delay. No-one else can report it - I can't despite what you have said as I was not involved - but it really needs to be investigated, and urgently.