PADI Open Water Knowledge Reviews

[Scuby Dooby]

I wouldn't feel any different at all Matt. The book should be produced and sold on its own merit as most other books are. I have absolutely no qualms about sharing my ow book with my family and friends, why should I?

Have you ever loaned a friend a good book you read? Did you feel guilty that they didn't go out and buy it? Ever borrowed a book from a library? Shared a newspaper with someone?

The list goes on and on . . . the argument that sharing the book violates copyright is just plain ridiculous. The only way they have you is to control the instructor / shop by telling them their students have to sign on that they are submitting 'original' knowledge reviews.

Happily the people I've done my training with saw the flaw in this logic also.

 

[in_cavediver]

Just curious-

How many people would feel different if it were your material, music, software, writing, etc....? Not as in your copy of the book, but as in the material you published, created, and marketed. So maybe it is only $20 bucks to you, but if a thousand people did it would be a different story.

Do you people thisnk it s it alright to use Limewire, the old Napster, etc....?

Different arguement. This is a much closer analogy to this: I bought a copy of the latest Tom Clancy novel (or music CD etc). I read it and handed it to my wife to read. Does she need to pay again?

The sticky point here is the application of the questions to the knowledge reviews. It is obvious that photocopies are illegal and wrong. The real question that has come up is why PADI requires the originals to be submitted. In academia, responses to questions from texbooks (also copyrighted) are submitted without requiring the original page.

Is PADI's system really better and if so, should we wonder why the publishers of other textbooks haven't caught on to this? Oh yea, in diving, the seller of the book is also teaching the class and is also in the postition to make the profit. In college's, that incentive isn't there and what do you know, there is a thriving used book buisness.

As I stated before. Yes it sucks and yes it is about the money. PADI issues the standards so you just have to deal with it. (Or choose another agency who doesn't have the ludicrous policies)

Mike

 

[matts1w]

I wouldn't feel any different at all Matt. The book should be produced and sold on its own merit as most other books are. I have absolutely no qualms about sharing my ow book with my family and friends, why should I?

Have you ever loaned a friend a good book you read? Did you feel guilty that they didn't go out and buy it? Ever borrowed a book from a library? Shared a newspaper with someone?

The list goes on and on . . . the argument that sharing the book violates copyright is just plain ridiculous. The only way they have you is to control the instructor / shop by telling them their students have to sign on that they are submitting 'original' knowledge reviews.

Happily the people I've done my training with saw the flaw in this logic also.

Whoever said sharing a book with a friend is a copyright violation?

The arguement is that reproducing part of a book that clearly states it may not be reproduced is really ok because it can be easily done- that is ridiculous.

When a shop owner allows someone to reproduce part of a book that clearly states it may not be reproduced it is wrong. If he does so to profit by creating a class that undercuts the price of the instructor who follows the copyright he is really breaking the law.

There are many laws which I find stupid, but let's not for a minute pretend one is not expected to follow the laws concerning intellectual property becuase he/she finds it stupid.

For example- I teach/coach high school. If I wanted to show a Disney video to my class I have to buy a video with these sorts of rights. I cannot simply go to Blockbuster and buy the $23.99 DVD or especially rent the show. I have to buy a video and license from the billion-of-dollars-in-assets Disney corporation for about $90.00. The videos you buy at Wal-Mart are usually only licensed for HOME use. Is this stupid and greedy? Absolutely. Is it the law. You bet. By the way, does Disney actually go after teachers who violate their copyrights? Yes- to the tune of $500,000.

There are many alternatives to PADI certification and their system of education. The answer in a free market economy is go to another certification agency. Simple. Problem solved.

 

[Scuby Dooby]

There are many alternatives to PADI certification. The answer in a free markey economy is go to another certification agency. Simple.

Actually, a much better and simpler option is to not have to tear parts out of a book you've purchased so that subsequent contacts will have to buy another book.

The copyright issue is obviously secondary here, the only reason PADI is worried about copyright infringement in this case is that they lose the sale of another book, it has nothing to do with the theft of their intellectual property. No one is talking about reproducing the content of their book without citation - they are grasping straws to get all the money they can out of the situation.

Can you please find this situation replicated for me in another (valid) educational setting ? I certainly can't think of one. I have no problem with PADI making money, they aren't a non profit ngo, but I do have a problem with them using this flimsy excuse.

 

[Scuby Dooby]

Oops, sorry matt, one more.

You asked if I would have a problem with the situation if it were my book, etc. Well the answer is that I have published material which is then used and shared by academics with proper citation. I have no problem with this at all. If at some point i have the opportunity to write a text book I am fairly certain that I will not expect everyone who reads and uses it to buy their very own copy - it is not a normal convention as far as I am aware EXCEPT for a commercial firm (like PADI, sorry i haven't run into it anywhere else) attempting to link the production of a resource to the provision of thier training.

Sorry, i smell a rat.

 

[matts1w]

Actually, a much better and simpler option is to not have to tear parts out of a book you've purchased so that subsequent contacts will have to buy another book.

The copyright issue is obviously secondary here, the only reason PADI is worried about copyright infringement in this case is that they lose the sale of another book, it has nothing to do with the theft of their intellectual property. No one is talking about reproducing the content of their book without citation - they are grasping straws to get all the money they can out of the situation.

Can you please find this situation replicated for me in another (valid) educational setting ? I certainly can't think of one. I have no problem with PADI making money, they aren't a non profit ngo, but I do have a problem with them using this flimsy excuse.

You can find all you want here.

http://www.ala.org/ala/washoff/WOissues/copyrightb/copyrightarticle/Default3753.htm

Also note:

"...it must be remembered that copyright has two main purposes, namely the protection of the author's right to obtain commercial benefit from valuable work, and more recently the protection of the author's general right to control how a work is used" (Templeton "10 Big Myths About Copyright Explained").

 

[SDAnderson]

This misses one point. He ALREADY has a copy of the book minus the 5 worksheets. Are you telling me that those 5 worksheets are the key to the book and without them, the material is somehow comprimised?

Its about money, pure and simple.

Absolutely correct.

It seems to me that if we can accuse PADI of being greedy we could just as easily accuse the student of being cheap. When did it become a bad thing that people get paid for their work? It's easy to hop on the anti-capitalist bandwagon but remember that PADI is a business and gets paid by selling the course materials. Do you really expect them to give it away? If so, I want to be your boss come next payday.

Look at it this way folks - the course manual is a reference material, designed to be retained by students for future reference. PADI standards require each student to submit completed original exams in order to get paid but they could sell just the exam. Using the book that your sister's friends boyfriend used two years ago means one of you no longer has the book as a reference, the way that PADI has set the program up means that each student is forced to purchase not just the exam, but also the reference. In the long run, that's a good thing for the students, even if it means that a few more trees must die.

 

[Christi]

My two pesos:

Included in the price of all courses I teach are the training materials. I give them the choice of the book or CD-Rom wherever applicable. I ship each student their study materials in advance if possible...so each student gets their own copy of the books.

I do not think it is unreasonable for PADI (or any other agency) to require each student to have their own materials. As the argument has already been made, they paid to publish and produce the materials, so they should be paid for same. However, if the student wants to use copies rather than marking up their book, I think that should be their option if they have paid for the materials.

 

[latitude]

:05:

Did any of the PADI copyright supporters go to University? In most educational settings you are graded by your exam or some other measure of your learning the concepts put forward - not by purchasing a a book so the publisher can make some cash. Univerisities don't ask us where we got our books, in the late 80s my univeristy sold used text books alongside new ones at their own bookstore, obviously these were also copywrited material. Not sure whether they are still sold on campus or not but take a look at all the used books you can buy at amazon,etc.

I know a few times I got my schedule, went to the bookstore to buy a particular book and found only new textbooks... Upon further examintion the reason there were no used books was because the required text was a new edition- first use that particular semester... Then, I'll take a look at the author- what do you know, the professor of that very class I was taking!!! They got me that time! I don't believe PADI's system says there's anything wrong with borrowing, trading, selling, whatever the books; but it is against their copyright agreement to take a PADI course without filling out and turning in the ORIGINAL, torn out of the book, knowledge reviews. I agree - it sucks, but it's the law... Would I do it that way if I were PADI (barring some discussion about liability, etc)? No - I'd wrap the $25 bucks I make off the sale of each book (assuming it costs $5 to print the thing) and include the materials "free" with the course. I'd make the money and people wouldn't have to cheat/lie/steal to get through my course. I think the reason they sell the books is so that the dive schools can make a few bucks off the sale (any dive school owners out there?).

For PADI to tell me that I have to go out and buy a whole new 'text book' (written at a 6th grade reading level) because it would be too dangerous for my son to use the one that i completed in an earlier course is absolutely ridiculous. PADI is going to have to come up with a much better excuse than that before I'll shell out the extra cash!

I don't think that's the reason they're making you buy the book. They're making you buy the book because they (and the dive schools) want to make the money off the sale. There's no debate about that, and I agree it's kind of a crummy way to play the game... but it's their product and they can set any stipulations they want on it's sale and use.

And by the way, I'll take the exta $30 and do a days worth of resort diving in the philippines thanks - not because I'm cheap and unsafe, but because I'm frugal and see no need to buy into a ripoff!

Have a great dive guys & gals

And you'd be breaking the law if you did... Sorry to say, but in this case, you gotta pay if you want to play... (or look into a different agency)


I'm not trying to debate whether forcing you to buy a book is a good/bad/ethical business decision... I think it sucks too. But in this case PADI's got ya. The original poster asked for copies of the knowledge review- Giving/selling/sharing them with him would be unethical and illegal. As bad as it sucks I'll fork over the $30 and walk away with 6 less airfills and a clear conscience...

Anyone want to talk about the Adobe Photoshop license that says you can only install it on 2 computers? "but I paid for the thing and I have 3 computers"... :05:

 

[luvx77x8o4]

I didnt buy the padi ow book, I bought the CD-rom. Its a lot better cause the videos are in there and you can do the knowledge reviews and print them out. Best of all, I bought 1 copy and all my buddys copied it on their computer and they each have a copy.