PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[Storm]

Storm,

I personal wouldn't say that was a bad analogy. But, I would of said...that even though we receive drivers training certificates, we still speed, run red lights, and inadvertently cause accidents. Really can't blame the agency for any of mine, as most of them were caused by "ME" driving outside of posted limits! As before, really just trying to address the original question in this thread by not criticizing an organization for "our" diving accidents.

Bruke

Sorry guys and gals, I guess I didn't say that one right.

I didn't mean to imply that the analogy was incorrect, rather that the use of it in this case is faulty logic, and actually makes my argument for me, and not Mlody11's.

If you consider the fact that car accidents are responsible a large number sudden deaths and injuries (non illness related - just to keep us off the cancer kills more argument) and that in a large number of those accidents (just go to any insurnace company's payout statistics) an inexperieinced driver was involved, then it easy to conclude that the "only requires you to take a written test and test drive" (minimum standards for driver education) scenario is part of the problem.

This is why I was saying that comparing driving licensing requirements to diving requirements does not make for good sense when one is arguing that the current standards are enough. It is obvious, by the carnage on our highways, that the current driver education requirements are not enough. My premise was that perhaps the RTSC standards for OW training are in the same situation...not high enough.

By comparing the two (diving and driving) with all the similarities, Mlody11 was actually making my argument for me...somehting I do not believe was his/her intention.

 

[nyprrthd]

Our society's "need" for instant gratification is the real culprit. The certification agencies simply pander to societal demands to insure the survival of their agency. It still remains an individual's responsibility to gain the skills needed for any endeavor.

At least there's no one trying to dive while putting on mascara, and talking on a cell phone...... Not yet, anyway.

 

[Storm]

Our society's "need" for instant gratification is the real culprit. The certification agencies simply pander to societal demands to insure the survival of their agency. It still remains an individual's responsibility to gain the skills needed for any endeavor.

Agreed, but if the bar were raised....... things that make you go HMMMM...

Storm,
As before, really just trying to address the original question in this thread by not criticizing an organization for "our" diving accidents.

Bruke

You keep going back to the agency, when I keep saying its not the agency, but the training standards (have you read them) that are allowing ALL agencies to push out students with the bare minimum training.

I'm sorry to say this as it will hurt some egos out there, but drivers who only get the minimum training (if any) then released on the public are getting people killed daily while statistics abound that show having properly (read professionally) trained beginning drivers (those who are taught the driving "techniques" of accident avoidance, safe driving, defensive driving,) reduces the carnage.

The same can easily be said about diving. If we try to get past the "fast and furious minimums" and establish training standards that focus on safety skills diving techniques, task loading for continuous improvement we'll get more proficient, effective and safer beginner divers. Again this has nothing to do with agencies; it has to do with raising the bar for all agencies, but increasing the standards.

I'll give a very simple example. If you're trained in a pool and quarry (using the current standards where trim and buoyancy control are not taught sufficiently), and given your OW the you jump into the St. Lawrence and have to deal with current, and low vis, you're going to have problems on that dive. They may not be major, but they will exist. The simple fact that your not trimmed is going to cause you to work harder against the current and blow through air more...which could lead to hoovering, which could lead to panic, which could lead to OOA, etc, etc, etc.

So something a simple as being taught to trim out horizontally, (which is not in the current standards) could help the new diver avoid a potential danger. Buoyancy control is important to diving as breathing is to life. It's that simple. You balloon anywhere from 60 to 100 feet and come up too fast, or paninc and hold your breath, chances are you're going get hurt, possibly killed. You're looking at that pretty wreck at forty feet, and loose attitude control and get blown into it, you're going to damage the site, maybe get caught up and entangled, then painc,..etc All of this because a fundamental skill of attitude control (horizontal buoyancy) is not always taught...it's not part of the standard. Hovering in any attitude, is not bouyancy control its depth control, and fragile at best, but is in the standard…so it must be appropriate.

 

[ScubyDoo]

It's pretty sad when teaching a diver how to properly weight himself, adjust his trim to be horizontal, and plan to have enough gas to get himself and his buddy safely to the surface is considered "Nth level of tech diving"

Terry

Proper weighting is taught in all standard OW courses regardless of agency. OW students who have problems with trim (which is a lot) are usually dealt with on an individual basis to get their weight/trim issues identified and resolved. This is usually achieved by adding/removing and or repositioning weights and explaining to the student how and why the adjustments are made. It doesnt take a specialized course in "The Mechanics of Static & Dynamic Trim" to achieve this.

As for gas management, of course students needs to fully understand and be able to apply the principles of good gas management. It wasnt my intention to imply otherwise. For recreational divers however, proper gas management is fairly straightfoward. If they followed thier training, planned thier dives, and dived thier plan....its really not necessary for recreational divers to have to compute and recompute thier gas management during a dive. What fun is diving if you spend all your time recalculating how long that 1250lbs of air is going to last at 50ft.??? You simply set the dive plan prior to the dive that lays out the rules for the dive. If your diving tables, you stay well within table limits, and end the dive when one buddy reaches a predetermined air pressure. If your diving computers, you stay within the limits of your own computer, and end the dive at either a predetermined air pressure, or when one diver approaches no deco limits.

It just seems to me that there are a lot of tech. type divers who feel the need to apply/compare the more stringent rules/procedures of technical diving to recreational diving. I think the more training ANY diver has the better, and highly encourage it. However, critiqueing the teaching standards of recreational OW courses based on technical diving standards doesnt make much sense to me. Recreational divers are not diving the Andrea Doria...we arent doing deco dives, making deco stops, etc. Theres no need to overcomplicate recreational diving beyond what it is. Just my opinion.

 

[Atticus]

From the NAUI Standards and Policies Manual, Scuba Diver Course -

Planning Skills:
Measure, record and calculate individual air consumption (as surface air consumption rate) using a submersible pressure gauge, depth gauge, and timing device.

Underwater Skills:
Monitor air supply and communicate amount remaining upon request and manage air supply so as to surface within a pre-planning minimum air limit.



If a diver has an RMV of 1.0 (which is high) and spends 3 minutes at a safety stop at 15' using an aluminum 80, they will go through 170 psi. Two people breathing from one tank (sharing air) at a combined RMV of 2.5 (panicy but not totally out of control) will use roughly 800 psi ascending from 100' (with not much of a reserve for a safety stop).

I teach a rule of thumb of leaving the bottom with at least 1000 psi (or more if they or their buddy are heavy breathers). I also give my students the tools to calculate their gas consumption the same way we do for technical diving using their measured RMV (per agency standards). I'd guess that only a small percentage perform RMV calculations after they leave the class.

What exactly do you wish to add with respect to gas planning?

 

[Goose75]

...It is obvious, by the carnage on our highways, that the current driver education requirements are not enough...

Possibly. It could also mean that a large number of drivers are deviating from their training either out of laziness or disregard for the rules. If so, that's an enforcement issue.

Driving offers a nice paralell until you get to enforcement.

 

[matts1w]

Okay- at the risk of getting slammed, I am going to throw this out here for discussion, and I do mean discussion. I have not made up my mind about this, and I am really interested as to what other have to say.

If we look at the recent annual DAN fatality reports we see three very obvious trends...

1. Most diver deaths are caused by divers diving way outside of their training- especially those diving solo. How can we point fingers at anyone but the individuals who are diving alone or in advanced settings with no training? None of the recreational agencies condone this behavior, but somehow they are blamed for an individual’s poor decision.

2. Obesity and heart disease play a significant role in many diver deaths, but that is not relevant for this thread.

I think this is worthy of discussion....

3. Every year about 15-20 percent of those who die on scuba are VERY experienced divers attempting cave, advanced wreck penetrations, and deep technical dives. This demographic represents a very small percentage of the diving population, yet they are dying at a much higher rate than the new or average diver.

Based on the above information, why are we not discussing the agencies and individuals that certify tech and cave? If maybe three percent of the diving population represents almost twenty percent of the fatalities, this needs to be discussed. Is it poor standards, poor instructors, or just the nature of the beast? It seems if we are going to point all fingers at open water divers and their teachers, it is only fair to look at these numbers too.

 

[Web Monkey]

I may be wrong, but beleive that's all Mike was talking about. Your initial post sounded like proper weighting and trim was somehow a technical diving skill.

Terry

Proper weighting is taught in all standard OW courses regardless of agency. OW students who have problems with trim (which is a lot) are usually dealt with on an individual basis to get their weight/trim issues identified and resolved. This is usually achieved by adding/removing and or repositioning weights and explaining to the student how and why the adjustments are made. It doesnt take a specialized course in "The Mechanics of Static & Dynamic Trim" to achieve this.

As for gas management, of course students needs to fully understand and be able to apply the principles of good gas management. It wasnt my intention to imply otherwise. For recreational divers however, proper gas management is fairly straightfoward. If they followed thier training, planned thier dives, and dived thier plan....its really not necessary for recreational divers to have to compute and recompute thier gas management during a dive. What fun is diving if you spend all your time recalculating how long that 1250lbs of air is going to last at 50ft.???

 

[Atticus]

I may be wrong, but beleive that's all Mike was talking about. Your initial post sounded like proper weighting and trim was somehow a technical diving skill.
Terry

It's possible some of us have been influenced by other posts of Mikes and read more into this than we should have

I completely agree - proper gas management for a recreational non-overhead, non-deco dive to 40' means keeping an eyeball on your gauge and knowing to surface when you hit your pre-determined pressure. There are scenarios where more planning is appropriate (current, returning to an anchor line prior to surfacing, etc) and students should have at least a basic understanding of how to handle this.

 

[Web Monkey]

I actually started this thread, but it was based on seeing divers get injured and scared while diving, not killed.

In recreational diving, assuming you don't drown, don't go into deco (at which point it's not rec diving anymore), and don't head for the surface way too fast, chances are good you're going to live.

Most fatalities I've heard of have been from divers doing dumb things (often, but not always solo), and from underlying medical conditions, which would have eventually killed them diving, or not.

A guy died on the St. Lawrence river in about 50' of water, 40' from shore, after digging a hole in the dirt under a wreck, crawling into it, cutting a hole in the wreck, then crawling in to that, and getting stuck. He was solo, so nobody even knew he was there.

You can't pin dumb moves on any particular agency or diving style. Some people are just determined to walk up and kick Darwin in the b***, and every now and then, he kicks back.

Others would have died sitting in a recliner watching TV, but instead did it while diving.

Terry

Okay- at the risk of getting slammed, I am going to throw this out here for discussion, and I do mean discussion. I have not made up my mind about this, and I am really interested as to what other have to say.

If we look at the recent annual DAN fatality reports we see three very obvious trends...

1. Most diver deaths are caused by divers diving way outside of their training- especially those diving solo. How can we point fingers at anyone but the individuals who are diving alone or in advanced settings with no training? None of the recreational agencies condone this behavior, but somehow they are blamed for an individual’s poor decision.

2. Obesity and heart disease play a significant role in many diver deaths, but that is not relevant for this thread.

I think this is worthy of discussion....

3. Every year about 15-20 percent of those who die on scuba are VERY experienced divers attempting cave, advanced wreck penetrations, and deep technical dives. This demographic represents a very small percentage of the diving population, yet they are dying at a much higher rate than the new or average diver.

Based on the above information, why are we not discussing the agencies and individuals that certify tech and cave? If maybe three percent of the diving population represents almost twenty percent of the fatalities, this needs to be discussed. Is it poor standards, poor instructors, or just the nature of the beast? It seems if we are going to point all fingers at open water divers and their teachers, it is only fair to look at these numbers too.