PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[Storm]

I have been hearing this refrain on scuba forums for the last 15 years. Do you actually have any *objective* stats to back that up that statement?

Vandit

No. Just personal observation of the three or four daily newspapers that I read. (2 such deaths on AOW courses in the last two years in Lake Ontario) But again you are trying to deflect the discussion. My point was that opinions expressed on this board, which is mostly visited by those in the sport, and not the genreal non diving public, will not cause anywhere near the damage to the dive industry's reputation as just one of those headlines will.

As more people get involved in the sport all stats will increase from the number of safe dives perfromed each year to the number of deaths related to the sport. The is a statistical certainty. While it would be nice to be able to say that with the increase in divers that incidents and accidents are going down, but the numbers game just doesn't work that way. How many deaths were attributed to diving in 1970? How many now thirty years later? Probably significanty more on a per instance basis, hopefully less on a per capita basis.

But again this is a deflection of the original issue. That in which we were discussing the various aspects of dive training, and the pros and cons of the various training methodologies.

 

[Michael Schlink]

I am always amazed by the posts that wax on about the good 'ole days when training was better. Then I look up the posters info and find out they weren't around "back then". Dive training hasn't changed nearly as much, in the last 15 years, as many like to complain about.

Twenty years ago, a scuba class, typically,was spread over 2 or 3 weeks and a couple of nights per week. Open water "check out dives" were 4 dives over a minimum of 2 days. Certainly more TIME was spent in the classroom as compared to today. You sat in a classroom and watched tapes, not nearly as well done as todays video, listened to an Instructor drone on about a lot of information that few, if any divers would make use of and then off to the pool for about 10- 12 hours of pool training that included a fair bit of swimming, treading and other "skill building" excercises.

Compared to todays "dumbed down" training it certainly took longer-BUT the question is, were the divers really that much better trained? Todays training involves less classroom time because you can watch BETTER more informative videos, at home on your computer, your laptop at the park, etc. etc. You meet with an instructor to go over the academic portion of your class, saving you time and comvenience. With a proven record that this style of academic training works better, in many other industries, why would anybody think that it's better to go back to the old ways of "lectures".

Next, even in most "fast track class" pool sessions, the time spent in the water is usually 8-10 hours. Seems to be about the same amount of time in the water that the good 'ole days provided. Classes are typically smaller than in the past, at least in what I'm seeing and hearing from other shops and instructors. It could be that the inst. time vs/ student may actually be higher!

Then the new student divers are off to their OW training dives-all FOUR of them, not much different than 20 years ago.

Well so what about the skills that students are expected to be able to demonstrate today vs "the good 'ole days" The only skill that comes to mind that I don't teach anymore is single hose air sharing. Why don't we teach that one anymore? Maybe the fact that it didn't work very well with numerous dbl. drownings occuring, plus the "octopus" alternate air source that became widely accepted pretty much eliminated the need for "buddy breathing".

Station breathing, ditch and don's, bailouts, blacked out masks, breathing off a tank valve and a few more that I've forgotten certainly made for a tough diver but I doubt they were that much better at swimming around a reef.
So is todays training that much worse, has it really been dumbed down. I don't think so, and since a lot of you, that pine for the "good 'ole days, have been trained the same way as those today, or 15 years ago you really shouldn't complain, after all you are diving aren't you???

 

[Storm]

Just completed 2 day padi cert with my fifteen year old son in 2005 ,I made him (my son)complete the workbook and I completed the computer based classes before hand . When the class was scheduled there was 6 people in the class and two instructors that ran the class, both instructors went from person to person and both stressed the importance of completing each skill properly ,the class consisted of recovering the material in the book , question and answer sessions about saftey and common sense issues related to diving then we covered the book test sessions , then another question and answer session then finaly after all that they gave us the final exam. In the water there were two people in the class that had some trouble with the required skills and after failing several times the instructors told them that they couldn't pass the class and that they would work with them more at some other time ( they left). They wouldn't just pass someone and didn't . Both instructors advised the class that OW Certs are the beginning and that ADV OW should be the next step and actual signed four of us up to continue on with there classes. I spent a few years around some very qualified (Navy EOD) divers and have had a mark 5 on my head and truly know the meaning of hose down the diver. Those guys opinion means alot to me and they recommended Padi

tremtech,

Take your time and go diving with your son. Find a group of experienced divers in your are and just go diving with them. Practice your buoyancy, and get the more expereinced folks to help you get your gear squared away and trimmed up properly. Work on increasing your comfort level and improving your SAC. If your DI deciides to take you all the way down to the 100 foot mark on your AOW deep dive, then these skills will come into play and with a good grip on these you can have a realy great dive otherwsie your first deep dive could be a bit more challenging than you first expect.

Safe diving.

 

[Web Monkey]

I remember it like it was yesterday . .

Students taking as long as they needed to feel comfortable, 7 or 8 weeks of 1 hour of class followed by 2 hours of pool, learning to handle conditions and situations they'll actually encounter, not just the RSTC minimums, really mastering skills, not just learning them well enough to pass the checkout dive.

The "Good Old Days". Yep. I remember them like it was yesterday. Oh, wait a minute . . . It was yesterday!

Some places still work like that. As far as "better" goes, I think the stats speak for themselves. So far we're up to somewhere around 35,000 students in a little less than then 50 years. No injuries. No deaths. Just happy, safe, well-trained divers.

Terry

Twenty years ago, a scuba class, typically,was spread over 2 or 3 weeks and a couple of nights per week. Open water "check out dives" were 4 dives over a minimum of 2 days. Certainly more TIME was spent in the classroom as compared to today. You sat in a classroom and watched tapes, not nearly as well done as todays video, listened to an Instructor drone on about a lot of information that few, if any divers would make use of and then off to the pool for about 10- 12 hours of pool training that included a fair bit of swimming, treading and other "skill building" excercises.

Compared to todays "dumbed down" training it certainly took longer-BUT the question is, were the divers really that much better trained? Todays training involves less classroom time because you can watch BETTER more informative videos, at home on your computer, your laptop at the park, etc. etc. You meet with an instructor to go over the academic portion of your class, saving you time and comvenience. With a proven record that this style of academic training works better, in many other industries, why would anybody think that it's better to go back to the old ways of "lectures".

Next, even in most "fast track class" pool sessions, the time spent in the water is usually 8-10 hours. Seems to be about the same amount of time in the water that the good 'ole days provided. Classes are typically smaller than in the past, at least in what I'm seeing and hearing from other shops and instructors. It could be that the inst. time vs/ student may actually be higher!

Then the new student divers are off to their OW training dives-all FOUR of them, not much different than 20 years ago.

Well so what about the skills that students are expected to be able to demonstrate today vs "the good 'ole days" The only skill that comes to mind that I don't teach anymore is single hose air sharing. Why don't we teach that one anymore? Maybe the fact that it didn't work very well with numerous dbl. drownings occuring, plus the "octopus" alternate air source that became widely accepted pretty much eliminated the need for "buddy breathing".

Station breathing, ditch and don's, bailouts, blacked out masks, breathing off a tank valve and a few more that I've forgotten certainly made for a tough diver but I doubt they were that much better at swimming around a reef.
So is todays training that much worse, has it really been dumbed down. I don't think so, and since a lot of you, that pine for the "good 'ole days, have been trained the same way as those today, or 15 years ago you really shouldn't complain, after all you are diving aren't you???

 

[caseybird]

*sigh*. Sounds like a great intro to a new thread in "Accidents and Incidents".

What happens when Mr. Big Breather "runs out of air" and wants yours again? "Sorry Mr. Big Breather. I don't have enough to for both of us anymore. You aready used that when we started."


Terry

Let's see, the divers check their SPG's (surely you've heard of them) and initiate a safe, slow ascent when either reaches their rock bottom pressure. Remember the big breather maintains a safe reserve in his/her tank, he/she does not go "out of air". (there's that miracle SPG in action again!)
Highly technical diving, to be sure.

 

[duckster3d]

SSI standards are about the same 4 - 5 pool dives, 4 openwater dive plus a snorkel dive, snorkel dive can be done on the swim out to a scuba dive. min of 10 minutes serface interval between dives.

I teach a lot of weekend courses,

friday night start with classroom and then pool swim test, snorkel use, then scuba if all are doing well.

Sat morning back to classroom then to pool eat lunch back to the pool and again up to the classroom.

sun start with pool, go to class, eat lunch class and then final pool skills test.

next weekend is openwater dives ussually to the lake on saturday, and ocean on sunday. after last dive i give the blessing to those that passed.

 

[divinginn]

in the good ole days we spent probably 60 hrs in the pool with only 1 checkout dive,i felt i was very well trained ready for anything,that was 1980 ymca program

 

[Web Monkey]

When I plan my dive, I make my calculations based on my SAC and desired depths/times, plus enough extra to get me and my buddy to the surface in an emergency, at any point in the dive.

I don't shorten my dive by letting my buddy suck down all that annoying "extra" gas I'm carring around. If my buddy (or anybody else) has screwed up bad enough that he's sucking on my tank, the dive is over and we're surfacing.

It's very nice of you to be willing to cut your dive short so your buddy doesn't have to get a bigger tank.

Terry

Let's see, the divers check their SPG's (surely you've heard of them) and initiate a safe, slow ascent when either reaches their rock bottom pressure. Remember the big breather maintains a safe reserve in his/her tank, he/she does not go "out of air". (there's that miracle SPG in action again!)
Highly technical diving, to be sure.

 

[Gibson]

How many hours/days or classes is not the real issue. Skill development and comfort level should be the standard. And although it is possible to get there in such a short time, it is not the norm. The norm in these classes seems to be to let anyone slide through just so long as it appears they can survive a few dives with an instructor. Almost all who don't quit get through and assume they have the needed skills. These poor folks then think they tried diving, when in reality they have not experienced "real" diving, which can be done only after developing some real skills and comfort.

I have taught diving for many years under different agencies, and I, like many others tried the compressed courses. It didn't take long to realize that although my training didn't change (other than less time between sessions), the divers coming out of such classes generally were not as good or comfortable. A short course always sells better when someone is told that it is just as good, but I believe any descent instructor with experience both ways will agree that in most cases the "short" or compressed course is not “just as good” and will not produce the same caliber new diver as a course with a more reasonable time frame. I stopped offering these programs shortly after starting. Although I know this has cost me financially I feel it was the right thing to do.

 

[vkalia]

But again you are trying to deflect the discussion.
<snip>
But again this is a deflection of the original issue. That in which we were discussing the various aspects of dive training, and the pros and cons of the various training methodologies.

Au contraire - this is *very* relevant to the issue at hand. Everyone and their dog has an opinion on diver training, with everyone having ideas on how to fix it. But the basic question remains: ThIs diver training really becoming unsafe?

Since individual experiences may *NOT* be an accurate reflection of reality (shocking as that may be to some people on this forum), it would behoove us to actually get some hard facts to back up blanket statements like "diver deaths are becoming all too common these days" - especially if those statements are being used as the basis of an argument for change.

They may be, or they may not. I for one dont know. I only know what I've seen - and what I have seen after diving in the North Atlantic, Florida, Red Sea, Maldives, Thailand, Mediterranean, Mozambique, Guam and a few other places is not the same as the state of diving that I hear about on Internet forums. And there are lots of people here who apparently have never seen a single competent beginner. I am sure they cannot *ALL* be wrong (they are all honorable men, or words to that effect).

It is simple:
- either argue from the viewpoint of personal experience, in which case subjective data is fine, but then you have to be prepared to allow for other people's experiences as well as be prepared to elaborate on the breadth of your data
- or argue using hard data, in which case you better have hard data

You cannot extrapolate your personal experiences into hard data - pick one or the other, not both. That is faulty logic and one of my pet peeves.

Vandit