PADI DM *REQUESTED* to take OWD deeper than 18m

[Diver0001]

That, for me, crosses the line into unprofessional behaviour. A professional diver (well...any diver!) should respect other divers' comfort zones and personal limits. Many of the incidents I've seen in the water can often be attributed to divers exceeding their comfort zones due to some form of peer pressure.

I think prudent dive-pros like you or me wouldn't even entertain doing such a thing... but diving is, in some places more "entertainment" than "training" and I think there *are* a lot of clients looking for a "kick" on their vacation. It's part of society today.... people don't collect stamps anymore... they collect "experiences" and a lot of them do that on their vacation.

To hear that a dive-pro responded to this by doing what a client wanted instead of what is "prudent" doesn't surprise me at all.....it's a reflection of the way society works. That still doesn't make it the right thing to do, but one *can* understand it.....

R..

 

[darren_uk]

I know little about the legal aspects of this scenario in Europe or England but I did notice that your dive profile indicates fewer than 50 dives. Your customers/buddies are looking to you for experience and leadership ..............

Lots of implied messages I'm gleening from this posting Reading between the lines I'll have a go at replying:


Re my logged dives:

When I set the profile (which looks like it was Feb 2011) it was <50 dives. To complete the PADI DM Course one needs to have 60 logged dives, with each dive countings towards this 60 as reaching certain standards as dictated in the General Standards. I have >60 such dives.


Re my logged dives not being enough for experience and leadership (implied by the "..............")

You may be right, however:

1. PADI appear to have settled on 60 logged dives to be adequate experience and leadership to be a certified assistant; of course people do criticise PADI. Your discussion ought to be directly with PADI on that note as it's not my standards but theirs.

2. Two Open Water Divers (who have now completed 4 logged dives each) can go to Vobster and jump in the water and they're within their rights to do so and do the same dive that we did.

and 3. see below about how this dive came about


re how did this dive come about:

1. I wasn't touting for business - this wasn't a job, my DM cap wasn't even on my head. I was simply in my LDS collecting some equipment for a dive the next day with my gf (I have all my own stuff, she does not)

2. This LDS aren't the same shop who instructed me, they know me though because: a) I've just bought equipment from them and b) practiced skills on several occassions by myself or with the gf and kids in their pool during their sessions. They know I was doing my DM course elsewhere and they know I'd just completed it. They've seen me at Wraysbury on occassion doing a normal fun dive.

3. They'd organised a Selsey Lifeboat station dive and I was in the shop the day before to rent some equipment for the gf; we learned the dive was cancelled due to poor viz so the gf and I decided to go to Vobster on the Sunday instead. As we were collecting our equipment the senior instructor approached me to ask if I could take his freshly qualified Open Water student to Vobster with us. That was the guy in question.


Hope that's ok?

 

[darren_uk]

This does not directly address your question, but I'll offer it anyway:

<snip>

Summary: The DMs I've been with seem to regard the 60-foot rating of a PADI OW certification as meaningless, and most seem to feel a diver should be encouraged to go deeper.

<snip>

I have a story that I think will confirm this:



First a bit of background and context:



I had a personal holiday in May this year and I turned it into a diving holiday to get my dives >60 to tick off that aspect of my DM course (I did 11 dives)


I met another customer there who wanted to do a trial dive the next day, being the same day as I was to begin my dives.


The next day I joined her and her instructor just to get experience of how another instructor gives trial dives - it was all nice and calm at 6m and it was a nice learning experience for me. But I digress.


She loved it and wanted to go again. But she was there for the same week as me so the shop owner explained that she might as well do the Open Water Course because repeated trial dives each day, given I was going to dive every day, would work out more expensive. She agreed and signed up for the Open Water Course.


So every day we'd both meet up at the shop, we'd jump in the RIB together, me with my shop-supplied DM for my 1:1 dives and her with her shop-supplied Instructor for her course, we'd go our separate ways (often being dropped at different places) and then we'd reunite back in the RIB later and return to the shop to swap notes.


On day 4 I remember returning with my DM-buddy back to the site where she was being trained for her final Open Water dives and seeing the instructor give the "whoop" signal underwater - she'd completed the final exercise. Cooincidence that we rejoined and so straight away her and I were given the "buddy together" signal and as a four-some (instructor, DM, me and her) we went for a fun dive - no problems so far, max depth was around 14m from memory.



Here's the part of the story that I was getting to:


On day 5, we went out again) this time the whole shop went out: Owner, her instructor, my DM, their other two DMs, and myself. I was briefed that we'd go to a 6m ledge that slowly went down and we (my DM, myself and her) would stop at 18m to let the rest of the group continue >18m, and we'd rejoin later at the RIB. Checking the depth guage, we went to 26m... Of course, there were no issues, and I was on her air gauge like a hawk which they'd seen me doing before anyway so they'd gotten used to my "DM-like" qualities; I was on her like a shadow - to me, it was her dive and the other DM was leading, and I was following shadowing her closely. There was even a moment when she had a blip with buoyancy but a quick grab of her low-pressure inflator hose to release a little air from the pull dump and she was fine again. Finally at 100bar he deployed the DSMB, we did our 5m stop with no issues, again <1m distance from her to cover any buoyancy issues as required, and then the dive ended nicely.


Max depth: 26m, in her logbook went 18m.


The End.

 

[Rogersea]

Another thing you will learn as you get more experience is, "Never reply" to texts like Tsunamis, there are plenty of people on this board who have nothing better to do than spew C*ap like that..

Lots of implied messages I'm gleening from this posting Reading between the lines I'll have a go at replying:


Re my logged dives:
Hope that's ok?

 

[DevonDiver]

I think prudent dive-pros like you or me wouldn't even entertain doing such a thing... but diving is, in some places more "entertainment" than "training" and I think there *are* a lot of clients looking for a "kick" on their vacation. It's part of society today.... people don't collect stamps anymore... they collect "experiences" and a lot of them do that on their vacation.

To hear that a dive-pro responded to this by doing what a client wanted instead of what is "prudent" doesn't surprise me at all.....it's a reflection of the way society works. That still doesn't make it the right thing to do, but one *can* understand it.....

R..

Very true.

I don't have a big personal issue with depth restrictions, as long as decisions are made on the basis of risk assessment.

The OP's example is quite a minor issue... the worst I've seen was in Belize... newly qualified (and badly trained, I might add) divers being taken down to 42m (some dropping deeper) at the Blue Hole. DM was oblivious, swimming away in front of the 'gaggle'. Was a fantastic dive site, but my dive there was ruined because I (as a customer) felt the need to provide the supervision that the DM wasn't...

 

[Crowley]

I too work in a job where I regularly take Open Water certified divers past the 18 metre depth recommendation - and it is indeed only that - a recommendation. Beyond that, the DM or instructor must use their own personal judgement as to whether the dive can be safely conducted with respect to depths, conditions and the experience level of the group.

I get divers who passed their entry-level certification 30 years ago and have never sought further training, only diving. They have accumulated hundreds, even thousands of dives, many in excess of the recommended limits of their certification, and so there is no way I am going to impose novice limits on these divers. I'm also not going to let them pop down to 60 metres for the hell of it.

Sometimes I have a group of beginners, and since the difference between 18m and 20m is about the same length as a human body wearing fins, I really have no issue descending a little further below the recommended maximum as long as it's appropriate to do so, at a dive site where conditions are such that I am not placing the divers under any undue added stress, and as long as they understand that it is entirely their responsibility to at least let me know beforehand if they are uncomfortable breaking those limits - and I usually ask. Please note that I am also not taking these beginners on deep dives in howling currents to earn money - I know this happens in certain locations but my centre is quite rigid about the safety aspects of who gets to go where.

Sometimes, of course, I have mixed groups and therefore it is incumbent upon me to ensure that the dive site is appropriate for all levels of experience, and that we are not going to accommodate requests for dive sites that may over-challenge the less experienced divers.

In my location, that's relatively easy. I could choose a reef with a flat sandy bottom at 21metres, for example, which yes, maybe exceeds 18, but if the diver has poor buoyancy control the worst they can do is bounce off the sand and really, that extra three metres makes very little practical difference to the overall safety of the dive. I am not going to throw them onto an 800 metre deep wall in a howling current unless I am certain they would be able to safely manage those conditions.

When it comes to standards for depth limitations - as has been pointed out before - at least for PADI, these must only be strictly adhered to during training, or for certain divers post-certification - primarily the younger (10 - 11 year old) Junior divers. I will not willingly or knowingly violate those standards, because then if anything goes wrong I have exactly zero legal defence, and beyond that, I actually want people to both have fun and also not die.

The rest is down to judgement, which comes with experience. For me personally, I've dived in some pretty awful conditions and I am confident that I can look after poor divers in the generally easy conditions of my current location. If the conditions change during the dive, I know where to go and in what direction to swim to either get out of the problem completely or minimise any potential compromise to the safety of the dive.

The legal issues are complex and proving negligence on behalf of the divemaster can prove difficult, but regardless of the outcome of the investigation and/or court case in the event of a serious accident or fatality, it is going to ruin the life of the DM in question, whether they are accountable or not, and therefore it is in nobody's interest to do anything stupid. As I recently posted elsewhere - A freshly trained motorcycle rider should not be trying to win Le Mans; neither should the concept enter their heads as being something they should feel able to accomplish, nor should their more experienced biker buddies be encouraging them to do so. On the other hand, if that person decides to break the speed limit by 10mph on a straight, wide empty road with no other traffic, then probably nothing bad will happen to them (sneaky police speed cameras excepted), but if they choose to do so, they should do it willingly, informed, and accept the potential consequences.

If you feel that you should strictlly adhere to your training, then do it. If a guide or instructor is suggesting dives that are beyond your personal comfort zone, talk to them. If they will not accept your concerns, walk away, and find a dive centre that will.

Safe diving,

C.