PADI DM *REQUESTED* to take OWD deeper than 18m

[darren_uk]

Hi



1 - I apologise if this is not the best forum to post this request - if it's not can you advise and I'll repost?

2 - I've seen similar questions to mine being answered but not my specific one, hence I've posted this as a new thread. If I've missed a thread where it has been answered previously then I'd welcome the link to that other thread.



I'm a recently qualified PADI DM.



Usually I assist my school at Wraysbury where the depth generally reaches around 9m maximum.



Newly certified divers often ask me to buddy with them as they want to explore other sites.



The site in question is Vobster where the depth now generally reaches around 21m maximum (and can go deeper)



I am aware that "As a new [PADI] Open Water Diver, 18 metres/60 feet marks the depth limit to which you're qualified to dive." (PADI's Adventures in Diving, Product No. 79101 (Rev 11/08 Version 2.09 page 67)



I am also aware that if I'm officially DiveMastering then one of my responsibilities is to give a site briefing.



Finally, I'm aware that I can only give a General Briefing: I cannot control the divers' individual behaviours.



This one particular diver wanted me to take him to the boat at Vobster that's marked with the number 6 buoys. A look at the site map showed me "20m"




I briefed him that:
- the boat indicates it's at a maximum depth of 20m
- the limit of his qualification is 18m
- I can only give this as a broad briefing but I'm not responsible for, and cannot control, certified divers' individual behaviours.
- I explained we could go down on the line and when we reached 18m he could make a further judgement call based on conditions; options could be to remain at a maximum depth of 18m around the top of the boat or even abort and do something else.


Additionally, I personally considered:
- the conditions (it's an inland lake)
- his competence in the previous 3 dives I've done with him



After my briefing, he chose to go to the number 6 boat and I buddied with him.




(as it happens, the top of the boat was around 17m; and I briefly touched the bottom to read the depth and it was around 20m - maximum depth on his computer post-dive was 17.7m)



Question: In the event of an incident would I have been watertight in court / would I be at risk of having my DM revoked?

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI standards actually only apply to training courses.

When the customer arrives to go diving at a PADI dive operation, they should sign PADI's waiver. That waiver spells out the requirement that they should follow 'Safe Diving Practices'. Thus, the onus of responsibility falls onto them to plan and conduct a safe dive as they were taught.

The depth limitations given to PADI students/divers are only recommendations. Those divers are free to accept or reject those recommendations on a personal basis.

As a dive professional you have a responsibility to supervise diving in a reasonably safe manner, as dictated (if in the UK) by UK H&S laws. You also have a personal responsibility to yourself... and your risk assessment for a dive should incorporate the relative experience and capabilities of your buddies/customers.

BOAT TRAVEL AND SCUBA DIVING LIABILITY RELEASE AND ASSUMPTION OF RISK AGREEMENTPlease read carefully and ll in all blanks before signing.


I, __________________________, hereby affi rm that I am a certifi ed scuba diver or a student diver under the control and
(passenger/diver)
supervision of a certifi ed scuba instructor, and that I thoroughly understand the hazards of scuba diving including those hazards occurring during boat travel to and from the dive site (hereinafter collectively referred to as “Excursion&#8221.


I understand that these inherent risks include, but are not limited to, drowning, air expansion injuries, decompression sickness, embolism, or other hyperbaric injuries that require treatment in a recompression chamber; slipping or falling while on board, being cut or struck by a boat while in the water, injuries occurring while getting on or off a boat, and other perils of the sea; all of which can result in serious injury or death. I understand the Excursion will be conducted at a site that is remote, either by time or distance or both, from a recompression chamber and emergency medical facilities. I still choose to proceed with the Excursion. By signing this Agreement, I certify that I am fully aware of and expressly assume these and all other risks involved in making such a boat trip and scuba dive(s), whether conducted as a recreational dive or part of a diving class.


I understand and agree that neither the divemaster/dive supervisor/instructor; nor the crew or owner of the vessel; nor the vessel itself; nor PADI Americas, Inc., nor its affi liate or subsidiary corporations; nor the owners, offi cers, employees, agents, contractors or assigns of the above listed individuals and/or entities (hereinafter “Released Parties&#8221 may be held liable or responsible in any way for any personal injury, property damage, wrongful death or other damages to me or my family, estate, heirs or assigns that may occur as a result of my participation in this Excursion, or as a result of the negligence of any party, including the Released Parties, whether passive or active.


I affi rm I am in good mental and physical fi tness to scuba dive. I further state that I am not under the infl uence of alcohol or any drugs that are contradicted to diving. If I am taking medication, I affi rm that I have seen a physician and have approval to dive while under the infl uence of the medication/drugs. I understand that skin and scuba diving are physically strenuous activities and that I will be exerting myself during this Excursion, and that if I am injured as a result of heart attack, panic, hyperventilation, drowning or any other cause, that I expressly assume the risk of said injuries and that I will not hold the Release Parties responsible for the same.


I am aware that safe dive practices suggest diving with a buddy. Accordingly, it will be our responsibility to plan our dive allowing for our diving limitations and the prevailing water conditions and environment. I will not hold the Released Parties responsible for my failure to safely plan my dive, dive my plan, maintain buddy contact and follow the instructions of the dive supervisor/vessel crew, including the dive briefing.


I affi rm it is my responsibility to inspect all of my equipment prior to the Excursion and will notify the Released Parties if any of my equipment is not working properly. I will not hold the Released Parties responsible for my failure to inspect my equipment prior to diving.


I further state that I am of lawful age and legally competent to sign this Agreement, or that I have obtained the written consent of my parent or guardian. I understand the terms herein are contractual and not a mere recital, and that I have signed this Agreement of my own free act and with the knowledge that I hereby agree to waive my legal rights. I further agree that if any provision of this Agreement if found to be unenforceable or invalid, that provision shall be severed from this Agreement. The remainder of this Agreement will then be construed as though the unenforceable provision had never been contained herein.
I understand and agree that I am not only giving up my right to sue the Released Parties but also any rights my heirs, assigns or benefi ciaries my have to sue the Release Parties resulting from my death. I further represent that I have the authority to do so and my heirs, assigns and benefi ciaries will be estopped from claiming otherwise because of my representations to the Released Parties.

 

[Diver0001]

Question: In the event of an incident would I have been watertight in court / would I be at risk of having my DM revoked?

You're never 'water tight' in court.

I think the answer to this is double. First of all, you're in the UK which means there are H&S regulations and some EU standards of conduct that supercede agency standards. To some extent a public prosecutor may appeal to this to give support to their argument that you are somehow negligent.

Secondly, there are three types of things that could apply:

1) criminal law
2) civil law
3) standards and agency conduct

In my experience, it's EXCEEDINGLY difficult in Europe to appeal to criminal law against a dive-pro regardless of what they have done. A couple of years ago there was a case in the Netherlands where the dive instructor broke several standards, planned (or actually failed to plan) a dive that was unable to be executed safely and then proceeded to leave his students twisting in the wind when the **** hit the fan and one of them drowned. The courts tried to argue criminal negligence leading to damages (the diver survived which meant the couldn't argue for manslaughter) and the courts found that there was too little evidence to prosecute him. Apparently being a 5 alarm idiot who should have known better does not make one a criminal, at least in Holland.

In a civil case related to the same incident, he did "settle" for liability, IIRC, although I don't know the details.

finally, his agency, PADI in this case, applied zero consequences regardless of demonstrative incompetence and violation a multiple standards, not only in this case but as court transcripts will show, over the course of time as a matter of his "normal" way of giving lessons. (in other words, he admitted in court that he never followed PADI standards for this particular course and didn't sound like he was about to start).

My feeling is that outside of course context, there is pretty much nothing you could do to cause PADI to revoke your DM status. Your actions could, however, lead to civil or criminal charges depending on what you did. IN the case of making a well planned dive to 20 metres with an OW certified buddy I couldn't see an "accident" leading to criminal charges. At best, exceeding "recommendations" may leave you vulnerable to liability charges if the buddy had an accident because as a DM you "should have known better". IN that case, however, "circumstances", including but not limited to the depth recommendation would all be weighed by the courts and the outcome would depend to a large extent on what actually happened to cause the accident.

So to make a long story short.... your DM status was not at risk for this... however, that does not release you from the obligation to plan an execute your dive safely.

R..

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree with all 3 replies. I think you have the bases covered (N.American baseball term!). When I was OW I did several dives below 18m--mostly with a DM or diver with local experience. But as mentioned, there are no certainties with the law. I'd say that if it is safe do it.

 

[Rogersea]

Your question covered what is often a point of confusion. In my opinion, using the example you cited, provide you conducted your dive in a prudent manner, you would be fine. Not everyone wants to take continuing education courses and gradually increasing ones depth limits based on experience is an exceptable method.

I would also recommend that you have this discussion again with the instructor who issued your PADI DM

Cheers,
Roger

 

[dkktsunami]

I know little about the legal aspects of this scenario in Europe or England but I did notice that your dive profile indicates fewer than 50 dives. Your customers/buddies are looking to you for experience and leadership ..............

 

[daniel1948]

This does not directly address your question, but I'll offer it anyway:

I was certified as an Open Water diver three years ago by PADI. My first dive trip after that was to Cozumel, where I was told we would dive to 85 feet. I told the manager of the PADI dive shop there that as an OW diver I was not supposed to go below 60 feet, and I did not feel comfortable going below my rated depth. He told me that I would be fine, and talked me into doing the deeper dives.

I was comfortable and relaxed during the dives and there were no problems or incidents, but thinking about it afterwards I decided it was a mistake to go that deep, given my level of training and experience. On my next dive trip (Nekton Pilot, in the USVI) I insisted on remaining at or above 60 feet, and as a result had to dive every dive with a crew member because no other guest was willing to plan a dive that shallow. The crew were very nice and one was always available every time I wanted to dive, but captain and crew all kept telling me that I was a good diver and could go deeper.

Eventually as I gained experience I was willing to go below 60 feet.

I have never had a DM decline to dive with me below my rated 60 feet (and since I travel alone, I'm very often diving with the DM as a buddy) and when I was limiting myself to 60 feet I've never been with a DM who did not try to convince me to go deeper, though in the face of my insistence they always agree eventually, except for one time, when the DM at Cape Eleuthera Resort, who I had told repeatedly that my personal limit on that trip was 80 feet, took us through a swim-through that exited at 95 feet, without telling us beforehand.

Summary: The DMs I've been with seem to regard the 60-foot rating of a PADI OW certification as meaningless, and most seem to feel a diver should be encouraged to go deeper. I think this is a bad thing. Though I also think that experience matters more than certification level. My advice would be to tell that diver that you have no legal authority to restrict his diving, but that you will not buddy him on a dive below 18 meters until he has demonstrated sufficient proficiency for the deeper depth. You might also tell him that an instructor can take him deeper, as part of an AOW or Adventure Diver course. My original OW instructor offered to take me down to 100 feet. I declined because I wanted more experience first.

I've now been down to 99 feet. Once. I've been to 91 feet on a single breath of air (with an instructor). I think it would be cool to hit 100 feet freediving so that my deepest dive ever would be without a tank. :cool2:

After that Cozumel trip I've taken to heart the edit to "Plan your dive and dive your plan" and when I've been tempted to go deeper than my planned depth, I've told myself "Dive your plan! You can plan a deeper dive tomorrow if you like."

 

[Diver0001]

I know little about the legal aspects of this scenario in Europe or England but I did notice that your dive profile indicates fewer than 50 dives. Your customers/buddies are looking to you for experience and leadership ..............

there is a reason he's asking this question you silly noob..... We can't change the world and some DM's will be certified with insufficient experience.... we can't change that and neither can they...... Asking a question and being answered with cynical buul-sht isn't going to help him at all..... The world is the way it is....

If you have anything *constructive* to add to this conversation then I invite you to add it....

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Summary: The DMs I've been with seem to regard the 60-foot rating of a PADI OW certification as meaningless, and most seem to feel a diver should be encouraged to go deeper.

It think this is context dependent.

It should also be noted that many people who do the work of a DM (especially in destinations popular with tourists) are actually instructors and are acutally qualified to take people deeper....

R..

 

[DevonDiver]

I've never been with a DM who did not try to convince me to go deeper, though in the face of my insistence they always agree eventually, except for one time, when the DM at Cape Eleuthera Resort, who I had told repeatedly that my personal limit on that trip was 80 feet, took us through a swim-through that exited at 95 feet, without telling us beforehand.

That, for me, crosses the line into unprofessional behaviour. A professional diver (well...any diver!) should respect other divers' comfort zones and personal limits. Many of the incidents I've seen in the water can often be attributed to divers exceeding their comfort zones due to some form of peer pressure.

DMs can sometimes have professional pressures, such as wanting to take a group on an 'optimal' tour of a dive site... which may have set depths etc...or to cater to the demands of a mixed-ability group; but they should recognize that convenience or commercial demands never outweighs safety or role-modelling a proper diving mindset.

Though I also think that experience matters more than certification level. My advice would be to tell that diver that you have no legal authority to restrict his diving, but that you will not buddy him on a dive below 18 meters until he has demonstrated sufficient proficiency for the deeper depth.

I get the impression that the OP has already dived with this customer on a number of occasions, in which case he should be well placed to make an effective risk assessment for planning a dive below the recommended maximum depth.

Also, bear in mind that experience does factor greatly into that recommended limit. This is exactly how PADI state their recommendation:



Note: Newly Certified Open Water Divers.

There is no requirement to have completed AOW, or even just the Deep Adventure Dive. On a legal basis, the definition of "newly qualified" could easily be put to the test.

What if a diver qualified, didn't dive again for 10 years, then wanted to get back in the water and go deep? They wouldn't be 'newly qualified'...

Best advice for the OP: Make a reasonable risk assessment for that specific dive, with that specific customer. If you are content that the dive is reasonably safe to conduct, then go for it. If you aren't content about the safety, either due to the conditions, depth, the diver's capabilities... or even your own capabilities... then don't do the dive.

There's no 'golden rule'.. except that you must be able to justify your decision making and prove that you took the appropriate steps and safeguards to assure the customers' safety against all reasonably anticipated risks.