Padi dive master swim test
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SSI Dive Con 400 yd swim is in open water AND in FULL setup..... BC w/ tank, weights, fins, mask, snorkel. And it's timed.... I did it in under 12 min but it was rough. I do the 400 yd annually with no aids for dive team and would rather do that then full gear.
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That's logical, but I would guess not always so. Swimming includes specific mechanics--breathing, arm strokes per kicks, head movement, etc. M/F/S deals with leg strength-- if you know a basic kick (hey, you know those students who DON'T!), and are fit and strong, you can go fast. Not much technique, training doing laps involved (though it would obviously help). Just get strong leg muscles. But I would guess you are correct in the majority of cases.
As I have posted often, I agree with you on being able to assess swimming ability based on 25 yards. I also agree with both you and DCBC on the importance of overall fitness in the water. I don't think being able to swim long distances recording great times is necessarily a way to judge one's survivability as a diver. Being able to swim fast and long with fins and/or full scuba gear IMO, definately is.
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There's a difference in what an Instructor requires by-way of in-water ability. A good chunk of them just want to check-off the requirements (or minimum requirements) of the certification Agency. Others put an emphasis on what they feel is necessary to train safe divers to dive in local conditions. Unfortunately, the two are not always the same thing. As conditions change, many Agencies recognize that the requirements for certification should change as well.
Fitness of the Diver just doesn't seem to be a factor despite many accidents occurring every year (heart attacks, panic) that are caused by a lack of fitness. I don't know why it isn't more important to those involved in the teaching/certification process.
I feel that the training I received adequately prepared me to dive safely. When I taught my wife and three sons, I wanted to prepare them to dive as competently as possible. The minimum just wasn't enough. NAUI (for example) actually uses this criteria to guide their certification process. I've adopted it as my own and don't certify a Diver or Instructor unless I feel them competent to dive with (or teach) a member of my family. I realize that diving instruction is a business and not every Instructor conforms to such criteria, but I think that its worked for me and my students over the years...
I divide my OW program into phases: Swimming/Conditioning, Fins/Mask/Snorkel, Theory/Exams (General, Decompression, Tide, Gas projections), SCUBA, Rescue, OW preparation (buoyancy evaluation, blackout drills, harassment, pool dive with full OW equipment and an optional Chamber dive), concluded by dry (pre-dive planning, site assessment, debrief/logging) and wet elements of the OW check-out. It takes approximately 50-60 training hours to complete.
Very simple, if a candidate can not do the 400 swim then he/she should not be a dive master or IMO even rescue certified, period.
We all have our limitations and should be aware of where they are. As a dive master people hire/pay you and depend on your skills and education.
If you can not do the 400 yard swim by yourself then how can you rescue a 200 lbs. panicking adult ?
Part of our problem in our society is that we continuously lower the standards and loose credibilty.
My opinion might sound a bit harsh, but when it comes to professional titles and achievements people depend / trust on, no shortcuts should be allowed (regardless if you are a pilot, Dr., bus driver or a dive master).
We all have our limitations and should be aware of where they are. As a dive master people hire/pay you and depend on your skills and education.
If you can not do the 400 yard swim by yourself then how can you rescue a 200 lbs. panicking adult ?
Part of our problem in our society is that we continuously lower the standards and loose credibilty.
My opinion might sound a bit harsh, but when it comes to professional titles and achievements people depend / trust on, no shortcuts should be allowed (regardless if you are a pilot, Dr., bus driver or a dive master).
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Very simple, if a candidate can not do the 400 swim then he/she should not be a dive master or IMO even rescue certified, period.
We all have our limitations and should be aware of where they are. As a dive master people hire/pay you and depend on your skills and education.
If you can not do the 400 yard swim by yourself then how can you rescue a 200 lbs. panicking adult ?
Part of our problem in our society is that we continuously lower the standards and loose credibilty.
My opinion might sound a bit harsh, but when it comes to professional titles and achievements people depend / trust on, no shortcuts should be allowed (regardless if you are a pilot, Dr., bus driver or a dive master).
Agree with some things you say.
I would modify this: If you can't do the 400 (ei, you can't even finish it to score a "1") then you should refine your swim technique and swim muscles until you CAN do it, then become a DM candidate. I would disagree regarding Rescue Diver. I would rather have as a buddy a certified Rescue Diver with the ability to rescue me than one who doesn't, but can zip through the 400.
Question-- When you say that if you can't swim 400 by yourself how can you rescue a 200 lbs. panicking adult?----- Are you assuming someone can actually swim say 200 yards out, subdue a panicking person (big or small), then tow a (possibly unconscious) victim back the 200 yards (to complete the 400...) all without wearing fins?
Quote: "I would rather have as a buddy a certified Rescue Diver with the ability to rescue me than one who doesn't, but can zip through the 400"
Agreed, the 400 yard swim should be mandatory for Rescue and not DM.
Quote: "Question-- When you say that if you can't swim 400 by yourself how can you rescue a 200 lbs. panicking adult?----- Are you assuming someone can actually swim say 200 yards out, subdue a panicking person (big or small), then tow a (possibly unconscious) victim back the 200 yards (to complete the 400...) all without wearing fins?"
Sure not you are right. Point is that being a rescue diver or a DM needs some stamina and a good physical condition, sometimes (in an emergency) a "mind over matter" attitude.
If a diver can not complete the 400 yard swim in adequate time then it is my opinion that this diver should NOT BE rescue certified, DM or anything thereafter. Otherwise we keep lowering our standards and might give the C cards away. Imagine the same constant lowering of standards occurs in some other professions you depend your life on.
Agreed, the 400 yard swim should be mandatory for Rescue and not DM.
Quote: "Question-- When you say that if you can't swim 400 by yourself how can you rescue a 200 lbs. panicking adult?----- Are you assuming someone can actually swim say 200 yards out, subdue a panicking person (big or small), then tow a (possibly unconscious) victim back the 200 yards (to complete the 400...) all without wearing fins?"
Sure not you are right. Point is that being a rescue diver or a DM needs some stamina and a good physical condition, sometimes (in an emergency) a "mind over matter" attitude.
If a diver can not complete the 400 yard swim in adequate time then it is my opinion that this diver should NOT BE rescue certified, DM or anything thereafter. Otherwise we keep lowering our standards and might give the C cards away. Imagine the same constant lowering of standards occurs in some other professions you depend your life on.
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axop, I do apologize to all for rehashing all this old stuff. One of my old points is that a primary rule for Rescue Diver is always have your fins (and and mask/snorkel) ready just in case. So, you'd don those before going 400 yards or any distance to rescue someone. Thus you need to be in good physical shape, most importantly the legs. Straight swimming ability not really important here.
I still must ask-- Even with strong finless swimming ability and physical condition, do you think "mind over matter" gets you to where you can do that 400 yard rescue finless? Even if so, you still would use your fins, no?
My point on Rescue Diver is I agree that the current no-required timed 400 meter swim for that course makes sense. I'd much rather dive with someone who has rescue skills than someone who doesn't but can swim like a rocket. If the (timed) 400 is required for Rescue than that person I'm buddied with may have simply decided "the heck with getting Rescue Cert.--I'm not going to train to get a good time on my swimming".
Don't get me wrong, I feel that everyone that does ANY activity on or near any kind of water chest deep or more should know how to swim. With a proper stroke. It's a life skill, not just for scuba. Not moving the head out of the water side to side with each arm stroke, or toughing out the OW 200 meter swim requirement in any old way. This is the standard for PADI OW and I see people who can't swim properly passing this all the time. I would rather see someone swim one pool lap properly and judge their overall stamina another way-- perhaps a lengthy tired diver tow? I would also like to see the (instructor's choice, we determined) "200 yard OR 300 with m/f/s" eliminated--require one or the other--same requirement for all--these are two totally different skills. For OW course I only had to do the 300-- the instructor therefore had no idea at all if I could actually swim or not.
I still must ask-- Even with strong finless swimming ability and physical condition, do you think "mind over matter" gets you to where you can do that 400 yard rescue finless? Even if so, you still would use your fins, no?
My point on Rescue Diver is I agree that the current no-required timed 400 meter swim for that course makes sense. I'd much rather dive with someone who has rescue skills than someone who doesn't but can swim like a rocket. If the (timed) 400 is required for Rescue than that person I'm buddied with may have simply decided "the heck with getting Rescue Cert.--I'm not going to train to get a good time on my swimming".
Don't get me wrong, I feel that everyone that does ANY activity on or near any kind of water chest deep or more should know how to swim. With a proper stroke. It's a life skill, not just for scuba. Not moving the head out of the water side to side with each arm stroke, or toughing out the OW 200 meter swim requirement in any old way. This is the standard for PADI OW and I see people who can't swim properly passing this all the time. I would rather see someone swim one pool lap properly and judge their overall stamina another way-- perhaps a lengthy tired diver tow? I would also like to see the (instructor's choice, we determined) "200 yard OR 300 with m/f/s" eliminated--require one or the other--same requirement for all--these are two totally different skills. For OW course I only had to do the 300-- the instructor therefore had no idea at all if I could actually swim or not.
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