PADI - Concerns about students skills.

[DiverDaniel2485]

Hello all Instructors.

I have some concerns about a students conduct whilst on the Open Water course. This student is now a certified PADI diver. The student was able to meet all the criteria set out by the Instructor Manual however this student;

1. Refused to listen to safety advice of an experienced Diver (DMT) yesterday (dives 1 and 2).

2. Was unable to enter the water in a safe manner on any of her 4 dives, effectively bellyfloping rather than a wide stride or backward roll. (did enter safely on the pool dive)

3. Was unable to maintain neutral buoyancy without being pulled down by myself and panicked multiple times when buoyancy was corrected including performing an emergency ascent once.

4. Was unable to do simple things like put their own fins on.

Now I would like to make it clear; she did demonstrate the skills required to a satisfactory standard, however given her conduct and inability to master basic skills even under direct instruction of a Master Instructor I hold serious concerns for her ability to dive safely. Under the supervision of a DM or higher, I think she would be fine, but to dive autonomously with another newly certified diver, I could never suggest that in good conscience.

What protocols exist? Are there any conditions PADI can impose?

For legal and professional reasons I obviously cannot name and shame the diver. I am hoping some experienced instructors, who may have dealt with this before, can impart some wisdom.

 

[Edward3c]

I can only speak for BSAC,

For us, it isn’t the instructor that signs off diver qualifications, but a lead instructor. If a candidate has a dangerous attitude to diving their qualification can be withheld. There is an appeal process.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

I can't cite chapter and verse at the moment, but I believe PADI standards have wiggle room for instructor judgment. That is, merely checking the boxes isn't sufficient to meet requirements.

A couple of possible reasons to deny certification would revolve around the student having demonstrated "mastery" of required skills in your "professional judgment."

If the student couldn't put on their own fins, have they mastered "put on and adjust equipment?"

If they are horrible regarding buoyancy, have they mastered "explore the dive site?"

Lastly, to the moderators:. Should this move to the Instructor forum?

 

[Edward3c]

Lastly, to the moderators:. Should this move to the Instructor forum?

The OP wouldn’t be able to follow the thread. No.

 

[DiverDaniel2485]

I can't cite chapter and verse at the moment, but I believe PADI standards have wiggle room for instructor judgment. That is, merely checking the boxes isn't sufficient to meet requirements.

A couple of possible reasons to deny certification would revolve around the student having demonstrated "mastery" of required skills in your "professional judgment."

If the student couldn't put on their own fins, have they mastered "put on and adjust equipment?"

If they are horrible regarding buoyancy, have they mastered "explore the dive site?"

Lastly, to the moderators:. Should this move to the Instructor forum?

Is there an instructor forum?

Sorry mate. I'm a noob on the site.

 

[wstorms]

Pre certification: like @Seaweed Doc mentioned; there is a good amount of professional judgement to be used by the instructor, the (subjective) umbrella term is "mastery";
"During confined and open water dives, mastery is defined as performing the skill so it meets the stated performance requirements in a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner as would be expected of a diver at that certification level."
In pretty much all the dives controlled buoyancy throughout the dive is a requirement. How stringent you apply that is up to the instructor. For me, if a diver struggles a bit with buoyancy once or twice during a dive, no biggie, it's a novice diver after all. If however the student only manages to control buoyancy during the specific moments it is requested (skills), I insist on improving overall diving first, and will not sign off anybody I think is not up to the required level of mastery. Your conscience can be a really good guideline for this stuff. When in doubt, be conservative (in this case don't certify)

Post certification: before you start any follow up course, you should determine the skill level of the student and remediate if needed. You can always refuse to train somebody, and a dive operator is entitled to refuse services to people if based on safety reasons.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

I would agree with everyone else here, and believe there is a strong case for saying the student did not meet the criteria for mastery.

Too late in this particular case, but you asked whether there was the facility for placing restrictions on a certification. The answer is yes, PADI Scuba Diver. This restricts a diver to max 12m and only when accompanied by an in status DM or higher.

The larger concern for me is the divers overall attitude in this case. Lack of willingness to learn and an over dependency on others do not bode well.

 

[Miyaru]

@DiverDaniel2485 Looking at your profile, I assume you're looking at this situation from a DM point of view?

You can't change the certification issued, but you can use this experience for your future diving. The majority of instructors on this board would not have certified the student, regardless of the agency: the last OW dive is basically showing the instructor that you can dive safely with a buddy, which is the combination of having ticked all the boxes, communicating with your buddy before the dive (diveplan) and during the dive (correct hand signals & correct responses).

If you see any violation of standards during course dives (regardless of whether you're assisting or observing), you are to report this to the agency. As a Pro, you signed for that.

 

[Angelo Farina]

I had a student like this many years ago, let's name her Francesca. She was highly motivated to become a certified diver, but she had very poor control of her body, and in some case of her brains (panicking easily and bolting to the surface).
Despite she managed to conduct all the mandatory exercises, I refused her the certification.
I am a CMAS instructor (more or less the same as BSAC), and I did never think I did the wrong choice.
She was later certified by PADI, and I was told that she became a decent (or perhaps even good) diver.
The reality is that I saw the potential, and a strong motivation. With one more month of training, I am sure I had been able to solve all her problems. But in the time of her holidays in the resort where I was working, two weeks, simply there was not enough time...

 

[Seaweed Doc]

Is there an instructor forum?

Sorry mate. I'm a noob on the site.

No problem. You can request access to it by contacting a moderator. If you're a DM or instructor, they'll let you in.