PADI class, SSI cert possible?

[rakkis]

Oh, and in my adventures i did see an article that says PADI can now certify for SSI and other URP students. See link

http://www.universalreferral.com/

True. But the SPECIFIC instructor certifying you (conducts the dives) has to be a URP member. You aren't a URP member by default just because you're an instructor.

 

[fisherdvm]

In order for a PADI cert to be issued within standards, he'll need to take the PADI final exam and demonstrate mastery in all 18 confined water skills as defined by PADI, as well as demonstrate the PADI required OW skills.

Sounds like alot of folks are cutting corners, eh?

 

[rakkis]

Sounds like alot of folks are cutting corners, eh?

<shrugs> I'm just making sure you're well informed.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Sorry in advance for the long post!:10: For those of you that just have to have the whole answer, here it is from a web site that copied it from the PADI pro site;

PADI is not a proponent of “universal” or “global” referrals for several reasons. Some of these are described in detail below. Generally, our legal advice has been that it will be difficult to defend, especially because the certifying instructor has not seen the student in the open water, and it can result (and has resulted) in customer service problems for the diver. However, if you choose to participate in this referral system, please make an informed choice.

How does the Universal Referral process work?

A student diver presents you with a “universal” or “global” referral. The student diver has taken his initial training through another training organization. The instructions on the form will direct you to conduct open water dives as outlined on the form and sign a statement on the referral document verifying that the student completed the dives. The student then carries the form back to his original instructor who is supposed to certify the student through his organization.

What is PADI’s position on the Universal or Global referral approach, and why?

PADI’s position on the Universal Referral program (and similar approaches) as regards divers receiving PADI credentials through such a process has also remained unchanged since the program was first presented to the RSTC in 1995. This position is based upon recommendations from legal counsel regarding the difficulty (perhaps impossibility) of defending a lawsuit resulting from a “universal” style referral process. The questions of how an instructor from one agency can be familiar enough with the standards and training requirements of a different agency to defend his actions; of how the referring (certifying) instructor can ascertain that the person conducting the open water dives was even a current, qualified instructor at the time the open water training occurred; of how the certifying organization can maintain any quality control whatsoever on the instructor conducting the open water training or have any reasonable way to know that its required open water skills were performed correctly by the student it will certify; etc.

One of diving’s most experienced attorneys, William Turbeville, as part of his analysis of the program for PADI, wrote this regarding the issue of an instructor authorizing certification for a diver whose open water training had been conducted by someone else: “It will be considerably more difficult to defend a claim of inadequate instruction if that instructor has never seen that student doing the single most important part of that student’s training – actually scuba diving.”

Upon completion of the open water dives under the Universal Referral process and issuance of a Universal Referral Temporary Card, can I consider the individual a certified diver?

This is a decision that is left to the individual dive center/resort or instructor. As with other certification agency credentials, PADI does not determine which agencies' certifications should be honored or recognized and which ones should not.

If I refer my diver to complete training dives elsewhere, may I certify the person as a PADI Diver when he returns back to me?

No. Under PADI standards, only the instructor who conducts the open water portion of the course can certify the student. If you were to issue a PADI certification to anyone that you have not personally trained in an open water environment, it would be serious standards violation.

May I complete open water dives via the “universal” or “global” referral process and send the diver back to the originating instructor for certification?

Choosing to conduct a nonPADI program is completely up to you. These types of referrals are not within the scope of PADI standards and programs. Therefore, whether or not you accept them is your business choice. PADI recommends that you fully inform yourself before making such a decision by thoroughly researching the issue.

What problems have arisen from PADI Instructors accepting a “universal” or “global” referral?

So far we have seen customer service issues as well as potential liability issues that may arise after diving accidents suffered by two different Universal Referral divers. The customer service matter was that Universal Referral students had their open water dives conducted by a PADI Instructor, but the original instructor subsequently refused to issue their certifications. The students were understandably upset at everyone involved.

The accident issues are potentially far more serious. The “Universal Referral Manual” provides for two seemingly contradictory circumstances. Students completing the open water dives are given a temporary card that is “valid for 30 days.” On the other hand, the manual also states that it is the original instructor who will issue the certification. The core question that results is whether or not the students being referred are considered qualified to dive once their open water training dives have been completed, but prior to their original instructor issuing certification. Further, it’s possible that these divers may not receive their certification upon returning home.

These issues may be litigated. The two divers, after completing their Universal Referral open water training dives, went diving in the days following the open water training and suffered accidents. If there is litigation, the questions of which party is responsible – the original instructor and his dive store, the open water instructor and his resort, the resort that let them dive on the temporary cards, the original instructor’s agency, the open water instructor’s agency or some combination of all of them – are immense. This entire issue is complex and you should be aware of these possibilities.

Will insurance offered through Vicencia and Buckley cover me if I participate in “universal” or “global” referrals?

Yes, if you are the receiving instructor for a “Universal” or “Global” referral student and you do the open water training, you’re covered.

How can a student diver with a "Universal" or "Global" referral earn a PADI certification?

PADI has procedures for accepting referred divers from other organizations to result in PADI certification. You can find this procedure in the “Open Water Diver Course Instructor Guide,: under the section entitled Accepting Referral Students from Certification Organizations Other Than PADI.

Similarly, this is the procedure to issue a non-PADI referral student a PADI OW cert;

Often students who completed their initial training with another organization will hear that PADI certification cards are among the most recognized in the world and want their training to end with a PADI certification.

Verification

Review the referral document to verify that the student has completed the
knowledge and skill development portions of an entry-level scuba course.
Retain a copy of the referral form.

•Verify that the student has completed a water skills assessment (at least a 200 metre/yard swim or 300 metre/yard mask, snorkel, and fin swim and a 10 minute tread/float).

•Verify that the training completion date listed on the referral document is not older than 12 months.

Documentation

Have the student complete a PADI Medical Statement, Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding, and Liability Release (Certificate of Understanding) and Assumption of Risk Agreement. If you use the PADI Student Record File, all of these documents are printed there.

Preassessment

You must ensure that the student successfully completes the entire PADI Scuba Review program (refer to the Scuba Review Instructor Guide) along with the PADI Open Water Diver Final Exam. Remediate the student’s knowledge and skills, as necessary, before any open water training occurs.

Use the PADI Skill Evaluation to assess student skills. In addition to the skills listed on the PADI Skill Evaluation Grade Sheet, the student must also demonstrate mastery of the following skills:
• Underwater swim without a mask
• Air depletion exercise
• Air depletion/Alternate Air Source (AAS) combined exercise

Training

A student referred from a certification organization other than PADI must complete
Open Water Dives One and Two for Scuba Diver certification, or One through Four for Open Water Diver certification. For instructional consistency, it’s recommended that the receiving instructor/dive center conducting the preassessment and required remediation completes the open water training.

Certification

As the instructor completing the open water dives, only you can certify the student. You must submit a PADI Positive Identification Card (PIC) envelope to PADI for processing and retain the student’s referral documents. You must submit the PIC within seven days of the completion of the course.

I have never registered as a referral instructor but I have sent many universal refferal students back to their origional instructor with referral dives and paperwork completed and have never recieved any negative feedback.

 

[mwhities]

My dive buddy and I was trained with PADI and did our check out dives with SSI and we are now SSI certified. Not sure if that matters to either agency but, that's how we are.

Michael

 

[surfsidedav]

The wife did exactly the same thing last year. Took all the classroom/pool work with PADI and did checkout dives with SSI to get a SSI card. She needed proof of completion of paperwork/pool work and just did a crossover. No big deal.

 

[garyfotodiver]

As an example, Force-E in S. Florida has both SSI & PADI instructors. I believe they would certify to either agancy but call to make sure.

FWIW, they had no problem switching my daughter's PADI junior OW to SSI OW when she reached the proper age if we wanted.

 

[fisherdvm]

There are enough differences in instruction in SSI and PADI, that I don't think that instructors should freely assign the C card of a student's choice. I will have to look more into the SSI program requirement, but I was quite disturbed that they did not teach my son to breath from a free flowing regulator.

No discussion was made in the SSI OW book on what causes free flowing reg, how to manage it, and how to breath from the reg.

When I heard this problem discussed again by a PADI instructor working with SSI students, I then realize that it is an SSI defect.

There are many causes of freeflowing, and all OW students should know what can cause it, and how to safely ascend to the surface with the free flow reg.

 

[donooo]

I am a PADI DM and an SSI Dive Con. I have little or NO experience with PADI students, but with over 60 days of pool sessions in the last 18 months I can tell you that every SSI student that I have been exposed to has been taught to breath from a free flowing regulator. When I am doing refresher courses I can't seem to tell the difference between the PADI students and the SSI students.

At least in this context it's back to the instructor.

adios don O

 

[fisherdvm]

I am a PADI DM and an SSI Dive Con. I have little or NO experience with PADI students, but with over 60 days of pool sessions in the last 18 months I can tell you that every SSI student that I have been exposed to has been taught to breath from a free flowing regulator. When I am doing refresher courses I can't seem to tell the difference between the PADI students and the SSI students.

At least in this context it's back to the instructor.

adios don O

Certainly right, it is back to the instructor. But reading, and rereading the SSI OW manual, and no mention of free flowing reg.

I am glad that PADI trained folks are teaching SSI class, at least they are teaching skills beyond what's needed by SSI.

Again, I am not familiar with SSI except for helping my son throught his SSI OW class, attending all of his pool sessions, and reading his SSI OW book. I asked the instructor at the end of the session why free flowing reg was not covered, the answer was "we don't have a way to make the reg free flow".

Would like some hard data on this from a qualified SSI instructor on what is the requirement of SSI OW student.