Overheard an Interesting Conversation at the LDS

[jmorriss]

While looking for some beefy Kevlar gloves at one of the North GA Dive shops I overhead the owner explaining to a prospective OW student that they no longer teach the tables but exclusively use the calculator. Maybe its my educational background (engineer), but my opinion would tend to be that if you can't figure out the table, you shouldn't be diving. Its waterproof, the batteries don't run out and has been the standard for years. While I understand that some people don't pick it up as fast as others and that the eRDP can assist in teaching my point remains-learn how to use the table. I just recently got my first computer (n2ition, can't wait to break it in in Panama City for the 4th ) I dutitifully brought my tables along on my first 32 dives and tracked my progress on them. It just seems along the lines of some other concerns on here that the agencies may be dumbing down the OW classes. I'd really like to see some comments from instructors on this one.

 

[gypsyjim]

:shocked2: I am not an instructor, but it seems that learning how to use the tables is part of learning and understanding the processes your body is going threw at depth and over time. It's difficult enough for a new diver to grasp things like residual nitrogen, etc without allowing the student to rely completely of electronic technology to keep them safe.

 

[alewar]

We can also stop teaching how to do simple arithmetic operations at school, after all children can use a calculator...

 

[Riger]

Except for EANx training, I have never used tables after OW training.

I am absolutely pro-computer, however, IMO there is nothing that can provide a solid understanding of NDL's like mastering tables.

I think that removal of that aspect of training does 2 (bad) things; (1) it increases the risk of reduced comprehension of NDL's and (2) it forces students to buy computers or electronic tables in order to dive post certification. I have never used the e-planner, so I am not sure if it can be used without a basic understanding of the tables.

I sense a commercial motivation (Sale of Computer or e-planner)......

Best Regards
Richard

 

[tstormdiver]

I am absolutely pro-computer, however, IMO there is nothing that can provide a solid understanding of NDL's like mastering tables.

I think that removal of that aspect of training does 2 (bad) things; (1) it increases the risk of reduced comprehension of NDL's and (2) it forces students to buy computers or electronic tables in order to dive post certification. I have never used the e-planner, so I am not sure if it can be used without a basic understanding of the tables.

I sense a commercial motivation (Sale of Computer or e-planner)......

Best Regards
Richard

I agree. Our shop still teaches tables but advocates the use of computers with the understanding that tables can be ultra conservative, thus cutting bottom time. It does help the student to understand better the concept of NDL's & also gives them an idea of how the computer tracks your NDL's.

 

[jmorriss]

Except for EANx training, I have never used tables after OW training.

I am absolutely pro-computer, however, IMO there is nothing that can provide a solid understanding of NDL's like mastering tables.

I think that removal of that aspect of training does 2 (bad) things; (1) it increases the risk of reduced comprehension of NDL's and (2) it forces students to buy computers or electronic tables in order to dive post certification. I have never used the e-planner, so I am not sure if it can be used without a basic understanding of the tables.

I sense a commercial motivation (Sale of Computer or e-planner)......

Best Regards
Richard

IIRC the eRDP is an extra $25 in the LDS's pocket.

 

[Rick Inman]

This has been talked about here on SB a LOT. Our own NetDoc (board owner) is a computer-no-tables guy. They always use the slide ruler analogy.

I'm in favor of knowing the tables, understanding how to use them and what they are telling us. Just being able to follow your finger across, turn the card over and let it tell you how long you can dive at a depth on the second dive isn't enough. I think divers should know what they are looking at and why. Applying the concept with understanding to your diving is power. It makes thinking through decisions possible, making a safer diver. I think it's insulting to think that people are too stupid to get it. Could it possibly be that training it is difficult, and that rather then becoming good at teaching, some people would rather just cut the material?

 

[jmorriss]

I agree. Our shop still teaches tables but advocates the use of computers with the understanding that tables can be ultra conservative, thus cutting bottom time. It does help the student to understand better the concept of NDL's & also gives them an idea of how the computer tracks your NDL's.

I am not evening talking about a dive computer-all that thing is a calculator that replicates the tables on the surface-it may have the multi level stuff built into the computer but its still probably more conservative then a real dive computer. Dive computers are awesome IMHO but unless you have the tables to back it up you could have a very expensive and very boring boat ride on the day your battery takes a dump.

 

[jmorriss]

This has been talked about here on SB a LOT. Our own NetDoc (board owner) is a computer-no-tables guy. They always use the slide ruler analogy.

I'm in favor of knowing the tables, understanding how to use them and what they are telling us. Just being able to follow your finger across, turn the card over and let it tell you how long you can dive at a depth on the second dive isn't enough. I think divers should know what they are looking at and why. Applying the concept with understanding to your diving is power. It makes thinking through decisions possible, making a safer diver. I think it's insulting to think that people are too stupid to get it. Could it possibly be that training it is difficult, and that rather then becoming go at teaching, some people would rather just cut the material?

I agree 100%. The tables aren't rocket science-its arguably easier then doing your own taxes by hand It would be foolish for any dry behind the ears newbie to jump in the water with something attached to their wrist or console without understanding the concepts behind the basics- dive computer theory is pretty advanced IMHO, but in laymen's terms the understanding should be passed down to any level of rec diver. I have borrowed the GF's computer on a few dives that I went on without her and still tracked with tables-for all the good it did once I was off them, but nonetheless. Would it be too harsh to say that if you can't learn the tables GTFO? If it were my liability on the line I would want to make sure I had all my ducks in a row. I am a civil engineer by profession-if I were to design a bridge solely in a computer program without ever touching pencil to paper I would be in a world of trouble should god forbid anything ever happen-that being said on stuff like that I do a simpler calculation to check a controlling case or something to make sure my answers are reasonable and THEN have someone else look at the thing to make sure I didn't make the same stupid mistake in two different ways. This eRDP thing just seems to be another example of people looking for the easy way out of things w/o fully understanding the consequences.

 

[Teamcasa]

I overhead the owner explaining to a prospective OW student that they no longer teach the tables but exclusively use the calculator.

It just seems along the lines of some other concerns on here that the agencies may be dumbing down the OW classes. I'd really like to see some comments from instructors on this one.

The dumbing down is one thing, teaching how to read and understand the tables vs computers is another.

Most recreational divers use their computers more than the tables but that does not mean they were not taught what nitrogen loading is and how to use the tables.

The problem I sometimes see is new divers that don't use the tables AND do not know how to operate and read their computers.