OOA - Tank Cradle

[Woodsie]

Long term lurker, virgin poster.

Reading through the molested at 100' thread, several people seem to make reference to a tank cradle, or being behind someone when their out of air. Reading this sounds like a good logical idea, however it has never been taught to me on any of my rescue training (BSAC Dive Leader).
Would anyone be kind enough to explain this procedure to me, a few basic steps for carrying it out and common pitfalls and just general hints when doing it, so that me and an instructor can go over it in a pool a few times.

Thanks,
Woodsie

 

[chrpai]

The thread that spawned a thread that spawned a thread.....

I was taught in my rescue class to get behind the diver and reach over to control their LP inflator and to make sure the reg stays in their mount. Was also taught how to tow the diver at the surface from behind. Additionally I was taught some ways to escape a panicked diver and get behind them.

That was all 10 years ago though. I really need to sit in on a rescue class and make sure I can still do all that.

 

[beanojones]

Assuming a single tank back mounted.

It's usually practiced first in surfacing the unresponsive diver. (which is the code word to search for videos on YouTube.

It's holding their tank between your knees with the diver facing away from you. Depending on what exactly you are doing, the right arm is over the diver's right shoulder holding the mask/reg in place, and the left hand is over their left shoulder operating their BCD. Since you do not have much kick available because your knees are locked on the diver's tank, you can use their BCD to control ascent.

The obvious benefit is that if the unresponsive diver (since that is the usual case for using it) suddenly becomes responsive, they would have a pretty hard time overcoming you since they are facing away, and you can get a pretty good pinch on their tank.

It would be nice to link a video on YouTube but they all show the rescuer putting their right arm under the unresponsive diver right arm, which pretty much loses most of the benefit of being behind the unrepsonive diver since that diver can get control of the rescuer pretty easily with the rescuer's arm in that position.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

(sigh ... here we go again) ...

If the diver is unresponsive, you do not need your knees locked on the sides of the diver's tank ... that's a tactic used to control a distressed diver who is more responsive than you'd like them to be.

There's a reason for putting your right arm under the unresponsive diver's arm ... it has to do with producing some leverage to move that diver, and being able to control their body position as you proceed with the ascent. Sure, you can do it the other way ... but it's more strenuous and it requires a pretty good degree of buoyancy control, since you'll be making a buoyant ascent rather than a neutral, swimming ascent.

If they're unresponsive, I don't see why you should be worried about them gaining control of the rescuer ... since they're unresponsive, after all. If they should become responsive ... which is rare ... and should become distressed ... which is even more rare ... then it's easy enough to break away. Chances are excellent to almost certain that you're going to become aware of their responsiveness long before they become responsive to the point of a threat to you, and you're in a position to use your knees and legs to kick away from them.

There are, of course, exceptions for placement of the right arm ... bringing up a doubles diver, for example, due to the fact that the tanks prevent you from getting in close enough in that case to get your right arm underneath theirs. In that case you're going to position yourself above the diver, so placement of the right arm over the shoulder becomes a necessity. The drawback of that placement is that you don't have leverage to hold the diver close to you while bringing them up, and must rely more on a buoyant ascent than a neutral, swimming one. Chances are really good ... unless you have excellent skills and the ability to anticipate and correct for it ... that you're going to end up hanging onto a diver who goes up feet first, and that you're going to be pretty darn tired by the time you get them on the surface ... which will reduce your ability to assist them once you're both there.

There are always going to be advantages and drawbacks to any specific technique. However, there's a reason why all the videos show it that way ... it's because all the agencies teach it that way. And why do you suppose all the agencies teach it that way? Because when you weigh all the advantages, drawbacks, possibilities, and probabilities, it's the most effective way to bring an unresponsive diver to the surface.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[beanojones]

No, all the agencies don't teach it that way, any more than all the agencies teach on the knees just because some videos shows training done on the knees.

Don't let videos teach you how to do things. Use them, like the videos of people kneeling in their Open Water Course training dives, to allow yourself to go ahead and use them for what they are, think about them, and try out different techniques.

Just because one person has not personally experienced someone who is in passive panic does not mean they do not exist, and in fact a halfway decent rescue class will spend some amount of time teaching people how to protect themselves from just that situation, whether it is a surface approach or an underwater approach.

The idea of one victim, not two, is basic to rescue theory, and leaving the arm somewhere where it can be easily trapped is asking for trouble, as is not controlling the diver.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

... then show me a video that shows it your way. There's a reason you can't find one.

The more I read your posts, the more I get the impression you learned things without truly understanding why they were being taught that way.

Agreed, there's some room for changing tactics based on circumstances. That's why it's important to comprehend why these rules exist.

One doesn't plan for the LEAST LIKELY contingency ... one plans, and trains, for the MOST LIKELY.

I'm also getting a little bit tired of your assumptions that everyone who doesn't do things exactly as you do are "internet" divers. You give me the impression of someone who rushed from OW to Instructor and now think you know everything. But the more you talk, the more apparent it is that you might know some things, but far less than you think you do.

FWIW - you're not the only person on ScubaBoard who actually dives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[beanojones]

But dude, what's the title of this thread? Is it argue with beano*, or is it what's is a tank cradle?

You could spend your time writing a post which explains a time when someone uses a tanks cradle (like I did), thus answering the OP's question, or you could spend time writing a post telling me I am full of it, which does not answer the OP's question.

The title is, in case you forgot, "What is a tank cradle?" and the further question asked in the first post was, "What it the rationale for being behind a diver in some situation?"

Neither of which you answered.

* Apparently, argue with beano is the topic in the other thread. But that's that thread..8000+ views... What can one say...

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Thanks Bob. I don't have to say another word.
But I will . To the OP when trying to gain control of a panicked diver at the surface it is desirable to stay out of their grasp. Duh!

In the Open Water class we teach this skill/technique. First of all as a buddy team whereby one diver tries to distract the victim and encourage self rescue. Really an exercise in futility as someone in full bown panic ain't listening to nothing or nobody. That's why it's called panic.

While this one, actually more of a spotter, does this the other buddy drops down and approaches the diver from below. Reaching them they drop the panicky persons weights. Belt, integrated, etc. IF they can. then moving around behind them they get in position to cradle the divers tank with their knees and reach over and inflate the BC. and attempt to calm them down.

Supposedly the victim cannot reach you in this position. Bull CaCa.

A big guy with long arms can still possibly get to the rescuer if they thrash around violently enough. So what I teach is that if the vic does not calm down or feels like a danger to the rescuer you push them away and observe from a safe distance. They are not going to slip under with a full BC and no weights. Let them wear themself out and then you can do something useful. They may go into panic again but hopefully by this time you have more help and they are not as violent due to being worn out.

If they do get you in their grasp you better be prepped to get out of it. Hit em in the jaw, knee to the stomach, etc. You do not want to become another casualty.

As for surfacing a non responsive diver well likely the reg is out of their mouth. Highly unlikely to trap you if they are dead. Someone in passive panic that could go active. Right arm under presents little danger underwater and you need to keep the reg in their mouth and you have some leverage. If they do go full blown active chances are they are not going after you behind them. Or trapping you as they are likely to be using those arms to claw for the surface. Best choice if they do is let em go.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But dude, what's the title of this thread? Is it argue with beano*, or is it what's is a tank cradle?

You could spend your time writing a post which explains a time when someone uses a tanks cradle (like I did), thus answering the OP's question, or you could spend time writing a post telling me I am full of it, which does not answer the OP's question.

The title is, in case you forgot, "What is a tank cradle?" and the further question asked in the first post was, "What it the rationale for being behind a diver in some situation?"

Neither of which you answered.

* Apparently, argue with beano is the topic in the other thread. But that's that thread..8000+ views... What can one say...

... you're the one who complained that none of the videos show doing a rescue "your" way ... I tried to point out why that is, and you went immediately into "you don't learn scuba watching videos" ... well ... duh ... you're the one who brought that subject up.

Maybe if you'd quit creating train wrecks, people would quit watching them. I'm not the only one who attempted to correct something you said, only to be called (by you) an internet diver.

Funny thing is, while you were in here arguing, I was out diving. Had a lovely hour underwater with some good friends this evening. Nobody ran OOA, and nobody panicked ... imagine that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Quero]

Would anyone be kind enough to explain this procedure to me, a few basic steps for carrying it out and common pitfalls and just general hints when doing it, so that me and an instructor can go over it in a pool a few times.

Woodsie, it's a lot easier done than described. The tank cradle is a technique in which you are behind the victim and you hold his/her tank steady with your knees while you reach in front to manipulate his/her gear, primarily in order to establish positive buoyancy on the surface by inflating his/her BCD, and if necessary, reaching around to drop his/her weights as well. If you want to try it out in the pool, get a colleague (the victim) to try to grab you (the rescuer) on the surface with the intent of climbing up on you; descend to about knee level of the victim, swim around behind, and as you surface, grasp the tank between your knees, and then on the surface, inflate your own BCD and lean back to get control of the victim; reach over the victim's left shoulder to use his/her power inflator, and if necessary, reach around with your right hand to release the victim's weight belt.

Assuming a single tank back mounted.

It's usually practiced first in surfacing the unresponsive diver. (which is the code word to search for videos on YouTube.

I would not recommend the tank cradle for this sort of rescue. The rescuer of an unresponsive diver underwater does not need to cradle the tank with the knees. For one thing, when you've got an unresponsive diver underwater to surface, you are going to need to fin while you bring the victim up, and you cannot fin effectively while you're cradling the tank with your knees.

It's holding their tank between your knees with the diver facing away from you. Depending on what exactly you are doing, the right arm is over the diver's right shoulder holding the mask/reg in place, and the left hand is over their left shoulder operating their BCD. Since you do not have much kick available because your knees are locked on the diver's tank, you can use their BCD to control ascent.

The obvious benefit is that if the unresponsive diver (since that is the usual case for using it) suddenly becomes responsive, they would have a pretty hard time overcoming you since they are facing away, and you can get a pretty good pinch on their tank.

It would be nice to link a video on YouTube but they all show the rescuer putting their right arm under the unresponsive diver right arm, which pretty much loses most of the benefit of being behind the unrepsonive diver since that diver can get control of the rescuer pretty easily with the rescuer's arm in that position.

This is markedly different from the way I teach surfacing an unresponsive diver. Yes, I have the rescuer put his/her left arm over the victim's left shoulder in order to have access to the inflator hose, but this is mainly to DUMP air from the victim's BCD as needed as it expands so that the rescuer remains in control of the victim and the two of them don't get dragged to the surface by the gear. This doesn't mean there will be no air in the victim's BCD, but only enough to get both the victim and the rescuer neutral so that finning up with the victim is possible at a safe ascent rate (for the benefit of the rescuer, at least). I also teach putting the right arm under the victim's right shoulder. This provides not only leverage, but also goes a long way towards preventing hyperextention the victim's neck as the rescuer holds the reg in place and fins towards the surface.

If a rescuer were not finning because s/he was using a tank cradle hold and were holding the victim's body by the head with the right arm over the victim's shoulder, the rescuer would essentially be dragging the victim up by the chin, and as a result hyperextending the neck. The head should stay in a normal position while holding the reg in place rather than hyperextending the neck during the rescue.