Online certification??

[sweatfrog]

Those are SDI classes... and as far as accepted anywhere... might be a slight overstatement. SDI has some interesting ideas... and maybe they've changed in the last year or so, but when checking it out once, they made me a SDI instructor... No charge, no test, no time in the pool... Just sign here. That had me a bit nervous...

And they were doing a class with no dive table theory or planning. Their idea was tables were what we used to dive with... no we use computers so don't worry about them. When I have SDI open water students taking my nitrox class... I get a "deer in the headlights" look when we get to table problems.

I guess on line is really not any different than a book... We do our classes as a take home book, dvd, audio CD's, workbook, tables, etc. It's the Naui Scuba Diver Kit, then they come hit our pool for 1 weekend, or with a private class... anytime they want. But during that time, we go over the academics, grade the test, answer any questions on the academics, etc. Then we can go out to the lake for a weekend of fish chasing, or sign off a referral to send them to the islands. We will not accept the SDI courses as credit toward certification as it does not meet our training standards.... But I guess other SDI shops would.

I'm with you on this issue Larry. I had an SDI person come in for an airfill recently. I asked him if he knew the tables and his reply was "No, I learned the computer". I proceeded to say that for me to fill his tank, he needed to take a refresher from PADI, NAUI or any major agency that teaches the tables before I would fill his tank. His defiant look told me what he thought of that idea.

 

[jonnythan]

I'm with you on this issue Larry. I had an SDI person come in for an airfill recently. I asked him if he knew the tables and his reply was "No, I learned the computer". I proceeded to say that for me to fill his tank, he needed to take a refresher from PADI, NAUI or any major agency that teaches the tables before I would fill his tank. His defiant look told me what he thought of that idea.

Out of curiosity, why exactly did you refuse to fill his tank?

 

[TCDiver1]

I honestly don't understand peoples misgivings about online academic training. I don't propose that it can replace face to face interaction but feel it can supplement it very nicely.

I would much prefer spending my time teaching students table theory or some other topic they might be having trouble with rather than droning on about mask straps or some topic they already have down pat.

As long as face to face student testing and evaluation takes place, i see nothing wrong online academic training if it covers the pertinent information.

 

[friscuba]

I'm with you on this issue Larry. I had an SDI person come in for an airfill recently. I asked him if he knew the tables and his reply was "No, I learned the computer". I proceeded to say that for me to fill his tank, he needed to take a refresher from PADI, NAUI or any major agency that teaches the tables before I would fill his tank. His defiant look told me what he thought of that idea.

So, do you test every diver who comes in for an airfill on the tables? 90% of divers who I've met can't work a 2 or 3 dive profile a year following their OW class. If you don't want to admit to agency bias, you ought to fill it, unless you are testing EVERYONE.

later,

 

[sweatfrog]

So, do you test every diver who comes in for an airfill on the tables? 90% of divers who I've met can't work a 2 or 3 dive profile a year following their OW class. If you don't want to admit to agency bias, you ought to fill it, unless you are testing EVERYONE. later,

My compressor, so if they want a fill, I guess they need to get their own. I see that you're a PADI Instructor. That means standards require you to teach the tables, so I'm confused why we're having this discussion anyway!

 

[friscuba]

You've got your right to refuse service to anyone, but the reality of it is that screening for knowledge of tables seems a bit overkill. You singled out the one agency which happens to acknowledge the reality that most people won't be doing tables once their dive class is over and pushes them to understand how their computer works during the OW class.

Before I moved and became a PADI instructor I hung out with the local YMCA crowd, they were all DM and Instructor level or on their way to those levels. In my year and a half of diving with them, I never saw any of them work the tables outside of the classroom. No doubt that they could do tables, but every one of them dove computers and relied on their computers for dive profiles. The current reality in scuba, for the most part, is that the majority of divers don't, or can't, work the tables... sounds like a good poll.

Tables are eventually going to go the way of vinyl records, they may be out there, but only the purists will use them, it wouldn't surprise me if most of the major agencies eliminate or dumb down their tables requirements for certifications in the next several years.

I'll still be teaching tables, but I can't see beating up on someone for understanding their computer and using it.

later,

My compressor, so if they want a fill, I guess they need to get their own. I see that you're a PADI Instructor. That means standards require you to teach the tables, so I'm confused why we're having this discussion anyway!

 

[sweatfrog]

You've got your right to refuse service to anyone, but the reality of it is that screening for knowledge of tables seems a bit overkill. You singled out the one agency which happens to acknowledge the reality that most people won't be doing tables once their dive class is over and pushes them to understand how their computer works during the OW class.

If you read previous posts, you'll see a "deer in the headlights" statement. The reality is that if people don't learn tables at the beginning, they are going to have trouble later on.

Before I moved and became a PADI instructor I hung out with the local YMCA crowd, they were all DM and Instructor level or on their way to those levels. In my year and a half of diving with them, I never saw any of them work the tables outside of the classroom. No doubt that they could do tables, but every one of them dove computers and relied on their computers for dive profiles. The current reality in scuba, for the most part, is that the majority of divers don't, or can't, work the tables... sounds like a good poll.

Poll away, if you allow Jose to guide you by the hand, or can't put your own equipment together I don't consider you a diver. I'll bet the people you dove with knew the places they dove, depth & time by heart. This is a thinking persons sport.

Tables are eventually going to go the way of vinyl records, they may be out there, but only the purists will use them, it wouldn't surprise me if most of the major agencies eliminate or dumb down their tables requirements for certifications in the next several years.

Only if the Insurance companies allow it. Tables will still be around for Tec Diving and in my opinion, once one major agency takes out tables, you'll see a surprising amount of Instructors jumping ship.

I'll still be teaching tables, but I can't see beating up on someone for understanding their computer and using it. later,

There's a huge gap between someone using a computer and understanding it. What about the people who rent and won't pay extra for the computer, but don't understand the tables. That's an ethical problem I don't want to tackle.

 

[boulderjohn]

I cannot imagine it, from experience.

Programmed learning can only go so far. Even for a budding rocket scientist.

I think you may have a limited experience with online education. There are many possibilities with it. You seem to think it is all computer guided, but an online class can be set up with a tremendous amount of teacher/student and student/student interaction.

In another post, someone said they cannot imagine people learning some of the skills and knowledge without an instructor present. Students across America are currently taking classes like Advanced Placement Calculus, Advanced Placement Physics, and other similar classes through online education, and they are going to do very well on the AP exams in the spring. If they can learn topics that complex online, they can certainly learn the basic concepts of scuba.

Can they come in and pass the exams, and can they perform the skills in the CW and OW sessions when they are done? If so, who cares what method was used to acquire the knowledge?

 

[Debraw]

PADI is testing this right now by implementing online scuba reviews and Discover Nitrox. When I first heard about online training I immediately thought about the busy professional who does not have time to take a traditional class. My shop, Surface Interval Scuba, offers a flexible scheduled class at no extra charge. We have never had to turn away a student because of a scheduling problem. Our training agency is PADI and we give the students the books, and DVD and they come to class prepared with all the knowlege reviews done so we only have to review those. It cuts down on the class time considerably. We offer more time in the pool as a result. There are people who prefer a class that is lectured and takes a few weeks. Our shop also offers the opportunity to sit through another complete session if you do not feel like you absorbed enough the first time around. From what I understand of the online training through PADI the instructor must "sign off" so you can go through and all courses can be checked on by the instructor reguarly. I think it would be blatantly obvious if the stduent showed up at the shop for the pool sessions and had, someone else take all the bookwork portion for him online. A few verbal questions would quickly confirm if the student had done the work himself or not. I do not think LDS should rely solely on this as a means of teaching but should only use it as part of the enhancement of an already solid shop based program. Even we we taught SDI a few years ago for another shop we taught the tables right along side with the computer. In our PADI classes we also introduce the computer when we teach the tables. Ultimately with any online training it always ends the same way, at the lake with an instructor, one on one. They have the final say. It's progress for someone who may have not been able to take an OW class before and now they can because of online training.

 

[pt40fathoms]

I'm with you on this issue Larry. I had an SDI person come in for an airfill recently. I asked him if he knew the tables and his reply was "No, I learned the computer". I proceeded to say that for me to fill his tank, he needed to take a refresher from PADI, NAUI or any major agency that teaches the tables before I would fill his tank. His defiant look told me what he thought of that idea.

OK, everyone who thinks this is a little over the top raise your hands...