NSS-CDS removes air sharing...

[J-Vo]

We had a guide in Mexico refuse to take us in the cave if we didn't demonstrate a "full" S drill. This was after us telling them that one of us was getting over the flu so we would rather not do a full air share drill. Interesting how the times changed the perspective.

 

[kensuf]

This post is about training, not S-drills.

Removing realistic air sharing from courses might be over reacting. The virus is effectively killed by SOAP. Everyone knows the corona virus is more efficiently killed by soap than by alcohol based disinfectants and that transmission is mostly airborne. There are also procedures that minimize the risk of infection: a backmount cave diver could use the backup reg all the time and offer a clean longhose and a sidemount diver could breathe from one cylinder only and share the other reg during excercise. Wash with soap on the surface.

I am very interested in reading the actual motivation for this policy. Given it's in the U.S. the motivation must be liability. If that is the reason, I might understand the policy (not really). Elsewhere people are responsible for themselves.

[edited: shortened and reorganised the text]

I'm on the NSSCDS training committee that proposed this change and on the NSSCDS board that approved it. However, I'm only speaking for myself.

Let me start off by saying that I'm a firm believer in donate the reg that is in your mouth to an OOG diver. I'm also a firm believer that you need a 7' hose to donate in a cave even if you're diving solo, the person you wind up donating to may not have been part of your original dive team. The *ONLY* time I have ever been in a real OOG scenario while cave diving, the OOG diver was not in my dive team and I'm reasonably sure that he was glad I had a 7' hose.

This change in our training standards is not meant to "get rid of air sharing" drills . When I voted for it, in my mind this is meant to be a temporary change while we are going through a pandemic with a disease that has many unknowns, but is clearly highly infectious, has had a number of people that were asymptomatic spreaders, and has killed many people. In my mind the overriding concern was the safety of the students.

It's my belief that we can effectively simulate an OOG air share without actually breathing from a donated second stage. It is my belief that we can do this in a way that accomplishes the goal of developing the skills to share gas, but without putting someone in potential risk from an asymptomatic spreader.

Also, keep in mind that we first proposed this change in the end of March when the projections were millions of fatalities and we knew less then about SARS-Cov2 than we do today. However, even though social distancing measures have minimized the fatalities, it's my belief that this skill should still continue to be simulated until a vaccine becomes available, or the circumstances of the class allow it to be conducted (husband/wife, students that have titers, etc).

Once the pandemic is over, it's my belief (and hope), that this skill will again become mandatory and required.

In regards to the idea of switching back to breathing the short hose / stuffing the long hose... In the event that I personally were faced with being out of gas and needing gas from a donor, I'll be happy enough to take the second stage that they've been breathing. Yes, I realize that there's still a risk of infection under these circumstances, but that risk is negligible compared to the REAL risk of drowning if I'm OOG.

OK, I realize there are going to be people that disagree with me on this and I'm wearing my asbestos suit.

 

[-JD-]

I'm on the NSSCDS training committee that proposed this change and on the NSSCDS board that approved it. However, I'm only speaking for myself.

Let me start off by saying that I'm a firm believer in donate the reg that is in your mouth to an OOG diver. I'm also a firm believer that you need a 7' hose to donate in a cave even if you're diving solo, the person you wind up donating to may not have been part of your original dive team. The *ONLY* time I have ever been in a real OOG scenario while cave diving, the OOG diver was not in my dive team and I'm reasonably sure that he was glad I had a 7' hose.

This change in our training standards is not meant to "get rid of air sharing" drills . When I voted for it, in my mind this is meant to be a temporary change while we are going through a pandemic with a disease that has many unknowns, but is clearly highly infectious, has had a number of people that were asymptomatic spreaders, and has killed many people. In my mind the overriding concern was the safety of the students.

It's my belief that we can effectively simulate an OOG air share without actually breathing from a donated second stage. It is my belief that we can do this in a way that accomplishes the goal of developing the skills to share gas, but without putting someone in potential risk from an asymptomatic spreader.

Also, keep in mind that we first proposed this change in the end of March when the projections were millions of fatalities and we knew less then about SARS-Cov2 than we do today. However, even though social distancing measures have minimized the fatalities, it's my belief that this skill should still continue to be simulated until a vaccine becomes available, or the circumstances of the class allow it to be conducted (husband/wife, students that have titers, etc).

Once the pandemic is over, it's my belief (and hope), that this skill will again become mandatory and required.

In regards to the idea of switching back to breathing the short hose / stuffing the long hose... In the event that I personally were faced with being out of gas and needing gas from a donor, I'll be happy enough to take the second stage that they've been breathing. Yes, I realize that there's still a risk of infection under these circumstances, but that risk is negligible compared to the REAL risk of drowning if I'm OOG.

OK, I realize there are going to be people that disagree with me on this and I'm wearing my asbestos suit.

Un-solicited suggestion for discussion.

Instead of clipping the dontated reg to a d-ring, clip it to the "OOG" diver's boltsnap. That way the "feel" of the hose drag/pulls remains pretty much the same.

 

[kensuf]

Un-solicited suggestion for discussion.

Instead of clipping the dontated reg to a d-ring, clip it to the "OOG" diver's boltsnap. That way the "feel" of the hose drag/pulls remains pretty much the same.

I think the method described in the social media post wasn't ideal. My method is simply have the recipient clip their own long hose to their right d-ring (this is an important part of receiving gas to avoid dragging a second stage!!!), switch to their own backup regulator, and hold the donated second stage while managing the hose and the reg.

 

[rddvet]

Un-solicited suggestion for discussion.

Instead of clipping the dontated reg to a d-ring, clip it to the "OOG" diver's boltsnap. That way the "feel" of the hose drag/pulls remains pretty much the same.

You mean the boltsnap on the reg they're using? I think that's a bad idea. What if they do actually get separated. Now you have the "OOA" diver that is suddenly without a reg and having to rush to the necklaced reg. On top of that have you ever accidentally clipped a boltsnap to another boltsnap? Sometimes they can be a real pain in the ass to unhook from each other.

 

[rddvet]

I think the method described in the social media post wasn't ideal. My method is simply have the recipient clip their own long hose to their right d-ring (this is an important part of receiving gas to avoid dragging a second stage!!!), switch to their own backup regulator, and hold the donated second stage while managing the hose and the reg.

I think that's better. Hold the donated reg up against their own reg in their mouth, so it's somewhat similar. Then they can feel if it's getting pulled away. I think clipping the donated reg to the chest dring is the part I'm not a fan of

 

[-JD-]

You mean the boltsnap on the reg they're using? I think that's a bad idea. What if they do actually get separated. Now you have the "OOA" diver that is suddenly without a reg and having to rush to the necklaced reg. On top of that have you ever accidentally clipped a boltsnap to another boltsnap? Sometimes they can be a real pain in the ass to unhook from each other.

I'm in no way claiming experience in this configuration, or caving for that matter - I read and follow to learn for someday ...

Wouldn't the OOG diver be going for their necklaced reg if the donated reg was pulled out of their mouth in a PC (traditional Pre-Covid) drill, or would they go for their own clipped-off longhose reg?

Honestly, I have not had much occasion to clip/un-clip bolt-snaps together. I will play with some. But I do agree it is not likely to be a one-handed muscle-memory sort of task. I doubt the concept has any value whatsoever for a spatially static demonstration, but maybe if you want to practice extended airsharing under dynamic conditions where management of the donated-longhose "leash" is important - much as in OW where maintaining proximity and control during an air-share ascent is important.

 

[rddvet]

I'm in no way claiming experience in this configuration, or caving for that matter - I read and follow to learn for someday ...

Wouldn't the OOG diver be going for their necklaced reg if the donated reg was pulled out of their mouth in a PC (traditional Pre-Covid) drill, or would they go for their own clipped-off longhose reg?

Honestly, I have not had much occasion to clip/un-clip bolt-snaps together. I will play with some. But I do agree it is not likely to be a one-handed muscle-memory sort of task. I doubt the concept has any value whatsoever for a spatially static demonstration, but maybe if you want to practice extended airsharing under dynamic conditions where management of the donated-longhose "leash" is important - much as in OW where maintaining proximity and control during an air-share ascent is important.

In real life the person is out of air, so they potentially don't have anything to go back to. In training you clip off your long hose once you receive the donated reg, so if you had to you would go to the necklaced reg. In my case when the reg was pulled out of my mouth I held my breath, flashed the hell out of my buddy, held up my middle finger and once they saw that, pointed to the lack of reg in my mouth. That seemed to get the point across to be more mindful of your buddy.
I've accidentally clipped a bolt snap to another one a couple times. It's always a pain to deal with .

 

[J-Vo]

I think that's better. Hold the donated reg up against their own reg in their mouth, so it's somewhat similar. Then they can feel if it's getting pulled away. I think clipping the donated reg to the chest dring is the part I'm not a fan of

How does that work if your lights out? You need one hand on the line and one up in front of you.

 

[rddvet]

How does that work if your lights out? You need one hand on the line and one up in front of you.

good question. I don’t think it would work. One more reason I’m not a fan of the decision.