No knee skills for DM

[giovyledzep]

I'm taking a PADI Divemaster course and I see all the skills and tests are demonstrated in a knees-on-the-floor position.
I always make a point of keeping good horizontal trim and minimizing contact with the floor (be it in a pool or open water) so not to damage corals, the equipment, stir up silt etc... sometimes contrary to what I see even the most experienced instructors do.

Of course when teaching inexperienced divers it's maybe better to start in the knee down position, but that's not really specified to be the case in the DM course.

Would there be any disadvantages in terms of scoring points in doing the skills in neutral buoyancy and good horizontal trim as opposed to the knees on floor position? For example, the gear exchange test I would much more comfortably and efficiently perform in neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim rather than trying to exchange fins and rubbing them against the floor, pulling legs forward, then trying to put them to the back again etc...

Any thoughts?

 

[TMHeimer]

The gear exchange: We started wearing each other's equipment, buddy breathed to swim to a spot on the pool bottom, and did the exchange. Think we would've gotten a "5" had it been graded back in 2009.
There are many threads/posts regarding neutral vs. knees on the bottom. I agree with the vast majority (well maybe 100%) who say neutral is better (for the very few skills that are involved--ie. you can't neutralized a giant stride or CESA of course).
My reasoning differs a bit from the crowd. I think the real advantage of teaching neutrally is that all the students are neutral while watching each one do the skill. I don't think actually doing the skill neutrally makes such a big difference. My feeling there is that myself and most that I worked with learned on knees, but due to general "water" activity prior to OW and continued regular diving after meant they (we) turned out fine.
I guess the DM course still uses example of kneeling to demonstrate skills. The skills themselves are the same, so I guess those examples (pictures/videos?) still can be used but you can do them neutrally instead. I'd think in time PADI will change those examples to being done neutrally.
Experienced people who have taught neutrally have said here that it's just as easy to do/demonstrate neutrally, so according to them, it should be just as easy to score the same as if you did them on knees. I always question this regarding the unit doff & don, but those more experienced than me say this is just as easy as well. I have no reason to try it to find out, since I can't find a reason that it would make any difference. You are probably caught on something (dive flag) when you are close to the bottom anyway, so on knees or neutral would still get the "untanglement" done.
Most if not all OW students are inexperienced of course. Everyone here will agree that it is an old school no-no to teach those skills on knees.

Back to the gear exchange-- It would take a fair bit of convincing for me to agree that doing this neutrally is just as easy. I don't recall any logistical problems because of the pool bottom when we did it. Then again, this test is for multi-tasking and avoiding stress and has no practical purpose. So perhaps adding one more thing such as having to remain neutral adds to the tasking? My advice would be to do it on the bottom (not necessarily on knees--sitting? kneeling? one leg behind the other?) if your instructor permits it (that gets into how much leeway an instructor has in the PADI system, another topic for sure).

 

[MichaelMc]

Practicality aside, the best way to demo them in your class would be horizontal and invented. Visually daring your instructors, on their knees, to mark you down.

I don't know the PADI standards, but NAUI scores 1-5, with 3 a pass, and 5 being
"An exceptional performance that demonstrates all the qualities required to earn a score of four and has initiative and creativity that is beyond expectations."
It is sometimes hard to think of what room a drill has for creativity, but invented while horizontal seems a clear option for most. You do need the goods to carry it off though....
There is also the element that your demo is to be well, a mock demo of how you will demo to your students..., so maybe first horizontal, then immediately followed by horizontal and inverted.

Aside from a ready willingness and ability to demonstrate them inverted, I think you should demonstrate the skills as you think best serves your students. There is mounting discussion here that that is horizontal, and evidence that Padi standards suggest that. You may want to judge where your instructor falls in that discussion.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

I'm taking a PADI Divemaster course and I see all the skills and tests are demonstrated in a knees-on-the-floor position.
I always make a point of keeping good horizontal trim and minimizing contact with the floor (be it in a pool or open water) so not to damage corals, the equipment, stir up silt etc... sometimes contrary to what I see even the most experienced instructors do.

Of course when teaching inexperienced divers it's maybe better to start in the knee down position, but that's not really specified to be the case in the DM course.

Would there be any disadvantages in terms of scoring points in doing the skills in neutral buoyancy and good horizontal trim as opposed to the knees on floor position? For example, the gear exchange test I would much more comfortably and efficiently perform in neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim rather than trying to exchange fins and rubbing them against the floor, pulling legs forward, then trying to put them to the back again etc...

Any thoughts?

If you can do the complete skill circuit to demonstration standard in neutral buoyancy, I'd say go for it. However, make sure it really is to demo quality. You won't get extra points for showing off if the actual skill fundamentals are lacking.

Alternatively, I'd ask your mentoring instructor what they want to see as they'll be the one grading you.

The gear exchange is up to you. However, bear in mind that there will be two of you so, if you want to do it in NB, make damn sure your buddy can as well!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Of course when teaching inexperienced divers it's maybe better to start in the knee down position.

No, just no. Please consult with Demis Farrugia: DSS Diving – Just another WordPress site. Awesome instructor who consistently creates great divers.

 

[victorzamora]

I don't think actually doing the skill neutrally makes such a big difference

I disagree with this....and I'm not just sayin this on the "be neutral bandwagon."

My wife's first OW dive after cert was in Roatan. We swam over a wall when she got water in her mask, so she immediately swung down to her knees to do the skill. She plummeted about 10ft before I caught her, and that's because I was nearly sitting ON her and was more focused on her than the dive.

Other skills, such as reg recovery (the swing-your-arm-in-a-cirlce maneuver) are notably easier and more useful while neutral. I'd argue that the reg recovery skill is completely useless on your knees as it puts your reg out of position.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Other skills, such as reg recovery (the swing-your-arm-in-a-cirlce maneuver) are notably easier and more useful while neutral. I'd argue that the reg recovery skill is completely useless on your knees as it puts your reg out of position.

Reg recovery while floating at the surface. Students should be taught that too, but while floating on the surface. Not on their knees.

 

[rsingler]

How you teach once you are on your own bears only a modest resemblance to the IE in-water exam. PADI has embraced neutral buoyancy instruction, but for the IE, what you want to demonstrate is a flawless skill in slightly slower than real time with exaggerated motions so that your Examiner/"student" can see every step.
For the confined water tests, they sometimes take place in a pool large enough to accommodate a flight of 8 examinees at a time. Mine was in six feet of water.
The extra half point you might gain for being neutral may be offset because the examiner can't look you in the face as you are demonstrating, to see the perfect demonstration-quality performance. If he can't see it, then a student theoretically wouldn't be able to see it, and you'll get marked down.

For the test, my recommendation is to follow the group, line up the way the Examiner tells you (neutral or kneeling), and do it better than the guy before you.

Then teach neutral, whenever appropriate. Why do I say whenever appropriate? Because that first mask flooding in pool water shallow enough to stand up in, might indeed need to be done on the knees, so that the frightened student who panics with the first bit of water in his nose can in fact stand right up.
OOA drills in deeper water? Not so much.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

i had to do gear exchange mid-water and remain neutral as part of my Rescue cert. I thought I was going to get to wear my instructors gear for the rest of the dive but NOOOOO, had to switch back. I fell in love with Poseidons that day.

Probably one of the cooler things I've done underwater.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

How you teach once you are on your own bears only a modest resemblance to the IDC in-water exam. PADI has embraced neutral buoyancy instruction, but for the IDC, what you want to demonstrate is a flawless skill in slightly slower than real time with exaggerated motions so that your Examiner/"student" can see every step.

Again, why not do it NB/T? Are people afraid of failing? Show them how you are going to teach? Just dropping on the knees is a continuation of the culture of mediocrity. If one cannot demonstrate these skills NB/T and pass, that person needs more practice.

For the confined water tests, they sometimes take place in a pool large enough to accommodate a flight of 8 examinees at a time. Mine was in six feet of water.

So? You can't be NB/T in 6 feet?

The extra half point you might gain for being neutral may be offset because the examiner can't look you in the face as you are demonstrating, to see the perfect demonstration-quality performance. If he can't see it, then a student theoretically wouldn't be able to see it, and you'll get marked down.

Then fix that. Be sure you can demonstrate these skills so that they can see you. What you are advocating is "pass by any means and then do whatever you want."

For the test, my recommendation is to follow the group, line up the way the Examiner tells you (neutral or kneeling), and do it better than the guy before you.

That's where we differ. I don't care how others do it. I care how I do it.

Then teach neutral, whenever appropriate. Why do I say whenever appropriate? Because that first mask flooding in pool water shallow enough to stand up in, might indeed need to be done on the knees, so that the frightened student who panics with the first bit of water in his nose can in fact stand right up.

Simple exercises for students not completely comfortable with having their faces in the water | Facebook

Try that.

OOA drills in deep water? Not so much.

No one said to do OOA drills in deep water. But they can and should be done NB/T.

Herein lies the problem. Agencies (and I'm not singling out PADI here, but in general), fail to teach (A) how to weight students properly (How I weight students in open water courses | Facebook) as the float at the surface test is far too course. For students in wetsuits, you can easily calculate the amount needed. You just have to do your homework up front (which many instructors don't). And they fail to teach (B) how to distribute weight so that students are able to be comfortably horizontal. Case in point: look at this platinum (i.e. a mill) PADI CD who has to keep his fin tips on the bottom: . Without any OW dives, my OW students achieve that in the pool on the first day.

We got to break away the mediocrity that infests this industry as shown in that video above.

Do it neutrally buoyant and trim people. If that's how you are going to teach, then make sure you can pass the IE that way (which is not hard to do).