New HP steel tanks (100)

[Chris12day]

I just purchased two Faber 100 HP steel tanks from one of the large suppliers off the internet. Question, what needs to be done by the shop who fills these tanks? Visual, I assume since it does not have a sticker and the valves are not attached yet? Is oxygen scrubbing required, if I want "regular" air? If I elect to have them oxygen scrubbed for EAN Nitrox, what should I expect the costs to be, ballpark?

Thanks

 

[maniago]

I just purchased two Faber 100 HP steel tanks from one of the large suppliers off the internet. Question, what needs to be done by the shop who fills these tanks? Visual, I assume since it does not have a sticker and the valves are not attached yet? Is oxygen scrubbing required, if I want "regular" air? If I elect to have them oxygen scrubbed for EAN Nitrox, what should I expect the costs to be, ballpark?

Thanks

Not sure how Faber ships them, but Worthingtons are shipped O2 clean from the factory, so you only need the VIP for a full up cylinder O2 nitrox clean cylinder.

That said, there are 3 levels of clean. 1) VIP is required because the valve is off. That's all that's needed if you just want air only. 2) Nitrox certed will get you stickers for such and the grease they use on the orings will be O2 compatible. That allows you to get nitrox from a place that has nitrox on tap (up to 40%). 3) If you are going to have the tanks partial pressure blended ie pure O2 will go into them as part of making the nitrox mix, then you need O2 cleaned tanks. That's a detergent wash and dry and O2 compatible grease.

Your valves and their orings are already O2 cleaned and compatible, or should be. I don't think you can get them any other way if they are brand spanking in the package new.

If your cylinders were not new or had air only ratings, then they will need to be detergent washed and dried and O2 compatible grease for any Nitrox and for partial blending O2 nitrox mixes (ie two birds with one stone).

Moral of the story: go for o2 clean and then you never have to worry about having to reopen the cylinder and do it during the current VIP cycle. BUT you must make sure that any air filler's equipment is O2 service compatible ie their compressor and associated gear was assembled with O2 clean parts/greases so that it won't void your Nitrox and O2 certs. Not every set up is so and this is a little known gotcha.

 

[Scared Silly]

Cylinders and valves some times come the factory O2 compatible. But that does not mean they still are. O2 cleaning can vary $25 would be ball park.

As what to do with the cylinders. Yes, you will want a visual inspection. Put the valves on and give them a thump with the palm of your hand to tighten. Then find someone with a trans fill whip and put a bit of gas in them so they have positive pressure. That will make the dive shop employee happy.

Lacking a whip - you can actually force a bit of gas into the cylinder by hold two valves face to face.

0. Place valves face to face and hold together tightly
1. Open empty cylinder
2. Open full cylinder
3. Close empty cylinder
4. Close full cylinder.

You get a few psi in the empty cylinder. Enough that when opened again it will bleed out.

That said, there are 3 levels of clean. 1) VIP is required because the valve is off. That's all that's needed if you just want air only. 2) Nitrox certed will get you stickers for such and the grease they use on the orings will be O2 compatible. That allows you to get nitrox from a place that has nitrox on tap (up to 40%). 3) If you are going to have the tanks partial pressure blended ie pure O2 will go into them as part of making the nitrox mix, then you need O2 cleaned tanks. That's a detergent wash and dry and O2 compatible grease.

The above is NOT correct and gets argued ad nauseum. Cylinders are either O2 compatible or not - regardless of whether one is filling via banked NITROX or mixing via introducing pure O2. The standard is any cylinder containing 23% or greater O2 must be O2 compatible.


Here is one the better explanations:

http://www.luxfercylinders.com/freq...linders-in-oxygen-enriched-and-oxygen-service

• Why does Luxfer require cleaning for oxygen concentrations above 23.5%
  
  

  Few concepts have caused more confusion and controversy in the recreational diving industry than the so-called “40% rule.” While there seems to be general agreement that special cleaning is required when a pressurized oxygen concentration reaches a particular “threshold” percentage, there is disagreement about exactly what that threshold should be and at what pressure it becomes important. Some say 40%; others say 23.5%; still others say anything more than 21% when a gas mixture is pressurized more than 100 psig. It would be helpful to explore the background of this confusion briefly before discussing Luxfer’s position on this vital subject.The 40% threshold is cited in a single Federal CFR published by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) of the U.S. Department of Labor: 29CFR910.430, which applies to “Commercial Diving Operations” and states in the section titled “Oxygen safety” on page 854: “(1) Equipment used with oxygen or mixtures containing over forty percent (40%) by volume oxygen shall be designed for oxygen service. (2) Components (except umbilicals) exposed to oxygen or mixtures containing over forty percent (40%) by volume oxygen shall be cleaned of flammable materials before use.”Please note that OSHA also provides a very specific definition about who should—and should not—be considered a “commercial diver” to whom the 40% threshold applies: “Commercial diver means a diver engaged in underwater work for hireexcluding sport and recreational diving and the instruction thereof” (46CFR197, page 409; italics added for emphasis).Even though OSHA clearly excludes sport and recreational divers from the CFR that specifies a 40% threshold, some professionals in the recreational diving industry have nonetheless been citing the OSHA “rule” for many years and maintaining that special cleaning of recreational diving equipment is not necessary with oxygen concentrations of 40% or less. These advocates of the “40% rule” have often stated that the U.S. Navy supports their position, which at one time was true—but no more. In the current applicable military specification (Mil-Std-1330D), the Navy specifies a 25% threshold for oxygen cleaning. Compounding the confusion is the fact that two other OSHA documents, 29CFR1910.146 and 29CFR1910.134, specify an oxygen threshold of 23.5%.For the sake of clarity, here’s a summary of the oxygen threshold percentages at which various key U.S. agencies and organizations require special cleaning of oxygen-handling equipment and systems:​

  Organization	Oxygen threshold	Reference
  U.S. Navy	>25%	Mil-Std-1330D
  U.S. Compressed Gas Association (CGA)	>23.5%	CGA Pamphlet 4.4
  National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA)	>21 – 25%	NFPA standards
  American Society for Testing & Materials (ASTM)	>25%	G126, G128, G63, G94
  National Aeronautical & Space Administration (NASA)	>21%/>100 psig	Various KSC & JSC
  Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA)	>23.5%	29CFR1910.146
  OSHA	>23.5%	29CFR1910.134
  OSHA	>40%	29CFR1910.430

  The reasons for Luxfer’s position: Luxfer supports an oxygen-cleaning threshold of 23.5% and does not support the alleged “40% rule.” This means that when a pressurized oxygen concentration used in a Luxfer cylinder exceeds 23.5%, the cylinder must have been cleaned to the same cleanliness standard mandated for a cylinder containing 100% oxygen. Luxfer’s reasons for this position are:​

  
  

  • All key U.S. regulatory and gas industry references except one advocate an oxygen threshold of 21% to 25%.
  • Luxfer is a member of the Compressed Gas Association and therefore supports the CGA-specified threshold of 23.5%. Furthermore, Luxfer defers to CGA on all safety matters related to oxygen handling and containment, as do OSHA and DOT.
  • As an international manufacturer, Luxfer works with regulatory authorities and industry associations around the world—the overwhelming majority of which support a threshold value from 21% to 25% (for example, this is true in the United Kingdom, Australia, France, Germany and Japan).
  • United Nations compressed air packaging guidelines (see UN 1002) indicate that when compressed air contains oxygen as the only oxidizing gas and the oxygen concentration exceeds 23.5%, then the entire gas mixture must be listed as an oxidizing gas.

  Some within the recreational diving community contend that the supposed “40% rule” is justified by an excellent scuba safety record and should therefore be maintained—despite the fact that so many agencies and organizations have specified much lower threshold values for oxygen cleaning. Luxfer finds this “history-of-use” argument unconvincing for the following reasons:​

  
  

  • Compared to other industries and organizations that use pressurized oxygen, oxygen usage in the recreational diving industry has not been sufficiently widespread, nor are available oxygen-use statistics sufficiently comprehensive, to declare a successful history of use for the 40% threshold.
  • Oxygen-related fires and explosions are inherently low-probability, high-consequence events—which means that they occur very infrequently, but are usually catastrophic when they do. Forensic evidence has shown that undetected, non-propagating fires happen within scuba oxygen systems more frequently than is generally known. It is possible to operate “on the edge” of a fire for years without knowing it—and to be lulled into complacency by seemingly “safe” performance.
  • As use of higher oxygen concentrations at higher pressures increases in the recreational diving industry, the risk of serious accidents will also increase.

  Under these circumstances, Luxfer believes that requiring thorough oxygen cleanliness at a threshold of 23.5% makes very good sense not only for the sake of individual safety, but also from the business standpoint of prudent risk management.​

  
  

  

  How clean does my cylinder actually need to be for oxygen service?
  
  

  It needs to be “oxygen clean”—which means free from contaminants that can be the fuel for an oxygen-fed fire (see the list of contaminants in Question 3, above). Cleanliness on surfaces is measured by milligrams (mg) of hydrocarbon per square foot of surface area (mg/ft²). In the U.S., DOT (in RRC 901c) requires that the cleanliness of cylinders used in oxygen service be proven to be less than 2.5 mg/ft², which is a level considerably below what can be seen by the naked eye. For this reason, a visual inspection after cleaning is not enough. A test must be performed to verify that the required cleanliness level has been achieved. In CFR49 173.302(b), DOT specifies an approved cleaning method and a standard test to determine the cleanliness of cylinders.​

  
  

  

  What is the difference between “formal” and “informal” oxygen cleaning?
  
  

  The terms “formal oxygen cleaning” and “informal oxygen cleaning,” which appear in some non-Luxfer scuba manuals, are intended to differentiate between formal, government-mandated oxygen-cleanliness documentation required in the gas and medical industries, as opposed to less-formal documentation used in the recreational diving industry.Unfortunately, some scuba technicians and divers have erroneously interpreted “informal cleaning” to mean that a less-rigorous, less-thorough level of oxygen cleaning is required for scuba equipment—even though the scuba manuals that use these terms make it quite clear that the same careful cleaning procedures and acceptable cleanliness levels should be used with all equipment in oxygen service. Moreover, the term “informal” is often associated with the so-called “40% rule,” from which some divers and technicians have wrongly inferred that the recreational diving industry somehow has special dispensation to clean cylinders to a less-stringent standard and at a higher oxygen-content threshold than other industries (see Question 4, above).Because of these erroneous and potentially dangerous misinterpretations, Luxfer chooses not to use the terms “formal” and “informal” when referring to oxygen cleanliness. Oxygen clean is oxygen clean—there are not different levels of cleanliness.As for documentation, it is always a good idea to thoroughly document all aspects of your oxygen-cleaning procedures and maintenance. Such careful record-keeping can be very valuable if an oxygen-related incident occurs.​

  
  

  

  How do I keep my cylinder clean for use with oxygen or oxygen-enriched gas mixtures?
  
  

  Here are some basic guidelines for keeping your cylinder clean and for using it with oxygen and oxygen-enriched gas mixtures (more detailed guidelines are available from CGA):​

  
  

  • Only use an oxygen-clean, oxygen-compatible valve installed by a properly trained, competent technician familiar with the procedures described in current CGA guidelines.
  • Either use no lubricants at all—or use only lubricants that the lubricant manufacturer explicitly recommends for use with oxygen systems and cylinders containing oxygen under pressure. Once you have found an oxygen-safe lubricant, always strictly follow the application and use instructions of the lubricant manufacturer. If a lubricant manufacturer does not specifically state that a lubricant is suitable for compressed oxygen service, don’t use it.
  • Have your cylinder filled only with contaminant-free gas pumped by oxygen-clean systems, including fill lines that are clean and dedicated only to oxygen service and compressors that will not release oils or other contaminants into the gas.
  • Make sure that the inside of your cylinder does not become contaminated by water, dirt, oil residues, body fluids or other contaminants during use and storage (see contaminants listed in Question 3, above). If the cylinder does become contaminated, it must be re-cleaned and tested before being used with oxygen again.
  • If a hydrocarbon or other contaminant is discovered on the outside of the valve-to-cylinder connection, the cylinder must be depressurized and tested to make sure that it is still oxygen-clean. If the cylinder is not clean, then it must be re-cleaned for oxygen and tested again before being filled with oxygen or an oxygen-enriched gas mixture.
  • Ensure that your cylinder is inspected and requalified only by properly trained, competent technicians who are familiar with government requirements regarding oxygen cleanliness and use. If you suspect that your cylinder has been handled by someone who lacks this requisite knowledge, do not use the cylinder for oxygen or oxygen-enriched service until the cylinder has been tested by competent people.
  • A valve should only be removed and reinstalled by a properly trained, competent technician who is familiar with procedures described in current CGA guidelines (see CGA P-38). Attempting to remove a valve without following the proper safety procedures can cause death or serious injury.
  • If a cylinder owner, user, inspector, requalifier, distributor or filler has any doubts concerning the proper cleanliness of a cylinder intended for oxygen or oxygen-enriched service, the cylinder must be tested for oxygen cleanliness before being filled or used.
  • When your cylinder has been exposed to possible contaminants, have it cleaned and tested for oxygen-cleanliness before filling or using it.

  
  

  

  
  
  
  
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[rhwestfall]

You will be charged "the penalty" for not having purchased from your LDS. Typically it will be $20 - $50 to "make sure the tank meets their standards"... and get their VIP sticker. Sad, but true.

 

[maniago]

The above is NOT correct and gets argued ad nauseum.

Yes, what you have quoted is indeed what I personally follow, but it is not scuba industry standard, AND you know that. For lack of getting wrapped around the axle, I wrote what the OP can expect at a typical LDS and that is the ubiquitous 40% rule. And that's what he's going to spend his money on.

---------- Post added July 13th, 2013 at 12:26 PM ----------

You will be charged "the penalty" for not having purchased from your LDS. Typically it will be $20 - $50 to "make sure the tank meets their standards"... and get their VIP sticker. Sad, but true.

+1. Exactly

 

[Chris12day]

Questions answered! I will not be using my LDS for the conditioning of the tanks, I will be in Florida for a two week diving vacation and will be paying the LDS there to do the work.... Hopefully my penality will not be too steep!

Thanks again for the responses!

 

[Keith.M]

That is quite the definition from Luxfer...

However, the reality is what the dive shop will fill.

I get standard air in my tanks here locally.They partial pressure fill Nitrox and so the tanks must be O2 cleaned. But when I am in Monterey and have emptied my cylinders, I get those same cylinders filled with 32% from Aquarius dive shop as the bank it. They can also partial pressure fill up to higher percentages and of course, that requires an O2 cleaned tank.

That also reflects the enriched air training.

 

[tech3324]

I vaguely remember from another thread that some internet retailers will supply a VIP sticker with the tank purchase. Couldn't hurt to ask them.

 

[WheelsUSN]

The above is NOT correct and gets argued ad nauseum. Cylinders are either O2 compatible or not - regardless of whether one is filling via banked NITROX or mixing via introducing pure O2. The standard is any cylinder containing 23% or greater O2 must be O2 compatible.


Here is one the better explanations:

Aluminum scuba cylinders in oxygen-enriched and oxygen service - Luxfer: Setting The Standard Worldwide

• 

  How clean does my cylinder actually need to be for oxygen service?
  
  

  It needs to be “oxygen clean”—which means free from contaminants that can be the fuel for an oxygen-fed fire (see the list of contaminants in Question 3, above). Cleanliness on surfaces is measured by milligrams (mg) of hydrocarbon per square foot of surface area (mg/ft²). In the U.S., DOT (in RRC 901c) requires that the cleanliness of cylinders used in oxygen service be proven to be less than 2.5 mg/ft², which is a level considerably below what can be seen by the naked eye. For this reason, a visual inspection after cleaning is not enough. A test must be performed to verify that the required cleanliness level has been achieved. In CFR49 173.302(b), DOT specifies an approved cleaning method and a standard test to determine the cleanliness of cylinders.​

  
  ​

While many people argue about whether the correct threshold for O2 cleaning is 40% or 23.5%, the people who argue for 23.5% based on the CFR always seem to ignore part of that law. The CFR calls for the cylinder to be tested IAW
RR-C-901.

"Each DOT cylinder must be cleaned in accordance with the requirements of GSA Federal Speci- fication RR–C–901D, paragraphs 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 (IBR, see §171.7 of this sub- chapter). Cleaning agents equivalent to those specified in Federal Specification RR–C–901D may be used provided they do not react with oxygen. One cylinder selected at random from a group of 200 or fewer and cleaned at the same time must be tested for oil contamination in accordance with Federal Specification RR–C–901D, paragraph 4.3.2, and meet the specified standard of cleanliness."

"4.3.2 Oil and hydrocarbon residue. Place a clean plug, cork, or rubber stopper in the cylinder neck, clean the area around it thoroughly with heptafluorocyclopentane (HFCPA) solvent, and wipe dry with a clean cloth. For cylinders with less than three square feet of internal surface area, remove the plug and pour in 300 milliliters (mL) of the solvent. For larger cylinders, add an additional 100 mL for each square foot of internal area over 3 square feet. Replace the plug and lay the cylinder on its side. Roll or rotate through 360 degrees on a level surface or level rolling/tumbling machine for a minimum of 10 minutes to assure all the internal surfaces have been thoroughly wetted with solvent. Remove the solvent extract into a clean beaker. Any undissolved liquid floating on the surface of the solvent would indicate the presence of water or glycerin. The solvent extract shall be analyzed for hydrocarbons by one of the following methods:

4.3.2.1 Evaporation method. Evaporate the extract to dryness at slightly below the boiling point and finish the drying in an oven at 221 oF (105 oC) ±1.8 oF (1 oC) for 15 minutes. Cool, weigh, and report as milligrams of extracted oil. All traces of solvent shall be removed from the cylinder upon completion of this test. Nonconformance to the requirements paragraph 3.3.2 shall constitute failure of this test.

4.3.2.2 Infrared spectrophotometer. A sample of the solvent extract shall be analyzed against a reference standard of the base solvent with a known hydrocarbon level of 2.5 mg per 100 mL. A response in fractional range displaying a greater contamination of hydrocarbons in the solvent extract than found in the reference standard of 2.5 mg per 100 mL shall constitute failure of this test. All traces of solvent shall be removed from the cylinder upon completion of this test."

None of the diveshops that have quoted the 23.5% rule to me have ever been able to show that performed the test required by that regulation, they just dropped a UV light in the tank and visually inspected it just like everyone else. I have yet to meet anyone who claims to follow the 23.5% rule "because it is required by federal regulation" that also performs the test required by those same regulations.