New DSS Torus Wing...

[GreenDiverDown]

Gosh, this seems like a biggie to me. I think you've stated in other posts (please correct me if I'm mis-stating) that the most common cause of bladder punctures is "pinch flats" where a hard edge (most likely the bp) pinches the bladder and punctures it. Are you saying that your new bladder material is impervious to pinch flats? The ability to unzip a zipper, throw some glue or a tire patch or whatever on there, and be diving again in 5 minutes vs having to send the bladder back to the manufacturer seems like a really big advantage to me.

I suspect that if the Torus bladder is as tough as the new Mach V then it would be pretty darn resistant to injury from pinching.

Still, like many, I would prefer access to my bladder both for emergency field repair or replacement. While DSS has its reasons for not using a zipper there are many products available that succesfully incorporate this option into their design.

IMHO, many of the supposed disadvantages listed above don't apply to the products I use... and some of them are just plain silly. I think that much of this anti-zipper thing is just marketing hype.

 

[cool_hardware52]

IMHO, many of the supposed disadvantages listed above don't apply to the products I use... and some of them are just plain silly. I think that much of this anti-zipper thing is just marketing hype.

Could you be more specific? i.e. which do not apply, and which are "just plain silly" and which are just marketing hype?


Tobin

 

[zach5150]

Could you be more specific? i.e. which do not apply, and which are "just plain silly" and which are just marketing hype?


Tobin

Oh boy, did my question start a "flame" thread? I hope not....

Tobin, just remember, even though there are some out there who are critical, I think the vast majority of users here, who know your products, LOVE them....that's why I bought from you, and the delivered product, and your customer service has proven them right.....remember, you can't make everybody happy

 

[divad]

I covered this many many tmes before, and I have to wonder if you are just trolling, but in short:


Oh, excuse me for not paying strict attention to, and memorizing, everything you "[have]covered many many times before." It was just a reasonable question.



Zippers make a stiff spot any sewn article.

What's wrong with a stiff spot.




It's possible, although unlikely, that the bladder can be pinched in a zipper.

If you're not careful you could lose an arm in one of those things.




Zippers add cost.

To who?




Other than access to the bladder, what do you percieve to be the benefits of a 360 zipper?

I like the sound?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Evad,

I have never said that one can't build a good quality useable wing that includes a zipper, we use zippers in some of our product line.

The fact remains that zippers do have potential problems that can be avoided if the zipper is eliminated.

The five quotes below are from the websites of other wing manufacturers. It would certainly appear that they all have some concerns about zippers.

"Our heavy duty zipper has a thick sheet of rubber between the zipper and the bladder to prevent wear or pinching."

"Heavy-duty zipper has a three-inch wide strip of Cordura to prevent zipper chaff on the inner bladder"

"Virtually indestructible. High quality Swiss RiRi zipper."

"Rubber protection under the zip to avoid impact damages."

"Short zip, not one inch more than necessary. A zip is a weak point, so it´s minimal."

Care to guess who said what?


Tobin

 

[Karen Cleveland]

Gosh, this seems like a biggie to me. I think you've stated in other posts (please correct me if I'm mis-stating) that the most common cause of bladder punctures is "pinch flats" where a hard edge (most likely the bp) pinches the bladder and punctures it. Are you saying that your new bladder material is impervious to pinch flats? The ability to unzip a zipper, throw some glue or a tire patch or whatever on there, and be diving again in 5 minutes vs having to send the bladder back to the manufacturer seems like a really big advantage to me.

Just curiuos, how many times has anyone ever had to replace their bladder or do emergency field repairs? I can only think of once and that product didn't have a bladder anyway and it was in no way an emergency, just a pin hole.

I am just wondering if this is more of a theoretical argument than a reality....don't really know but from my experience it is.

Karen

 

[divad]

Just curiuos, how many times has anyone ever had to replace their bladder or do emergency field repairs? Karen

Once.

 

[LG Diver]

Just curiuos, how many times has anyone ever had to replace their bladder or do emergency field repairs? I can only think of once and that product didn't have a bladder anyway and it was in no way an emergency, just a pin hole.

I am just wondering if this is more of a theoretical argument than a reality....don't really know but from my experience it is.

Karen

To use a cycling analogy for those familiar with the difference between clincher and tubular tires- I've put thousands of miles on my clincher bicycle tires without ever having to repair a flat, but that doesn't mean I'm not thankful for the ability to remove the tire and access the innertube to fix a flat tire myself when it happens rather than having to replace the entire tire like I would with a tubular tire. Yes, there may be times that the flat isn't repairable, and on those days my ride is over, but in those instances where I can repair the flat myself I'm back in action in short order.

I'm not trying to stir up a pot here. Tobin makes outstanding gear and I understand and appreciate his design choices. Any design choice is a compromise. I personally believe the benefits of a zipper outweigh it's drawbacks but many people clearly feel otherwise. I think it's fantastic that there are quality products with and without zippers so people have a choice.

-John

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Just curiuos, how many times has anyone ever had to replace their bladder or do emergency field repairs? I can only think of once and that product didn't have a bladder anyway and it was in no way an emergency, just a pin hole.

I agree, Karen. But still, if I am going use a inner bladder/outer shell design, then I want one that gives me access to the bladder. I don't want to have to send it back to the manufacturer for repair... as unlikely as that may be.

In my book, there are very few REAL downsides to a zipper... and almost no downsides that pertain to me and the rigs that I have chosen to use. So, I would rather have one than not. It just makes sense. If someone wants a zipperless wing, then that’s fine, too.

For instance, the Oxycheq Mach V has recently raised the bar with respect to narrow profile, inner bladder/outer shell, oval wing designs. It also successfully utilizes a 360 degree zipper. I have one and am very impressed with its form and function. The zipper allows me access to the bladder... in the rare event that I should need to do so... and it does so without any of the supposed "disadvantages" listed above.

I'm not worried about it failing. If a zipper fails it will usually fail when in use... at least that has been my life-long experience with zippers. In fact, I can't remember a zipper ever failing when in a static position. How often will I need to use this zipper? Rarely will I use it and then, only in the event of a repair. (I did open it up to take some pictures for the guys and it wasn’t hard or particularly dangerous.) It's just not a zipper that needs to routinely be zipped or unzipped. I certainly don't plan to use it as often as a wetsuit zipper! The same goes for pinching the bladder. I MIGHT worry about that if I used the zipper frequently but even so, somehow I've managed to zip my jeans every day of my life without ever snagging my penis. Shoot, if I was worried about that kind of thing then I would never buy a computer that had a user changeable battery.

The zipper on the Oxy Mach V is smartly placed and did not impose design restrictions and that is from the guy that made it. As for me, the end user, I am quite satisfied with the design. Whether or not it really influenced the design is immaterial to me... I like the end product... so I could care less if it made the designer think hard about how to do it. Likewise, the position of the zipper of the Mach V has nothing to do with camband windows. There is no room for 'conventional' slots because the extremely narrow inner dimensions do not allow it. There may be other reasons as well but the zipper placement is in no way related to this. Besides... it's another thing I don't give a hoot about. I much prefer to use an STA... on ALL of my rigs. I don't need camband slots or windows. As far as I know, the DSS wings are the only wings that utilize camband windows, anyways.

Did the zipper add substantially to my cost on this wing? I don't know. I don't care. I'll gladly pay for the zipper.

Does the zipper on the Oxycheq Mach V create a stiff spot? Yah, I reckon it does. Does that bother me? Not at all. I do like wings that can fold up small and the Mach V won't do that. Maybe that is partly related to the zipper but I don't think that is what makes the Mach V so 'beefy'. It has more to do with the thickness of the bladder and the stiffness outer shell. That's a trade off that I'm willing to take. When I'm 'space-challenged' I simply grab one of my little Pioneer wings.

And that’s all I have to say about zippers. They don’t bother me and I’d rather have one… when given the choice. But I’m sure that the zipper-less Torus is a great wing and if I wanted a Torus, the lack of a zipper would in no way keep me from getting one. Heck, if one is looking for an STA-less solution, then there probably isn’t a better system available from anyone. Zipper… no zipper… it just isn’t a feature that would influence whether or not I bought a particular wing.

 

[DivesWithTurtles]

Just curiuos, how many times has anyone ever had to replace their bladder or do emergency field repairs?

First BC, a used ScubaPro came with a patch. Replaced one bladder in an old Zeagle BC. One welded seam blew in a Halcyon bladder-less wing. Replacement came with pinholes. Recently punctured the third Halcyon through both front and back bladder-less layers. That's all in about 350 dives. I guess I'm rough on them, but it happens. Now I've got a new OxyCheq Mach V with a very thick bladder. We'll see...