Never the Twain Shall Meet

[DCBC]

I have been exposed to diving from a number of different perspectives (military, commercial and recreational). To me there is a core value that is present in the training of divers in each of these categories that may be shared. It does seem however that some recreational divers/instructors don't acknowledge that anything learned in any other area is related to the other. After all how could a surface-supplied diver have anything in common with a diver wearing scuba? :shocked2:

This has been a source of frustration for me, as I see that having trained military and commercial divers that their skill-sets stand them in good stead in recreational diving. Recreational training on the other hand seems too light to work well in the other categories, other than to serve as an introduction.

My method of training recreational divers requires much more discipline and effort on the part of my students, but it is not well accepted by the recreational community at large. It has been suggested that it serves no purpose other than to make things more difficult than they have to be.

So my question is how do you feel your training as a military or commercial diver is (or is not) beneficial to you when you dive for recreation? Is there anything that you've learned during your training program that you feel should be included into a recreational program? Is there anything you would want your children to know before they were certified to dive without supervision, that they may not receive in their initial training?

 

[deepwater]

I have much to say on this subject, but I think I'll leave it for a night in the pub, over a nice pint.

you might start thinking about the real diff. between a master diver and a dive master. The little teenie booper running around the LDS, trying to draw in the unsuspecting, has no clue as to what the diff. between someone who lives in the water and a tourista.

crap! it started spewing out now so, I'll say goodnight before it gets too bad.

 

[sjensenpiper]

I have met many recreational divers that have know clue about the dangers of diving be it recreational or commercial. Alot of these padi, naui or what ever f*ckn acronym instructors just push people through there open water that should never and I MEAN NEVER have passed there classes. I have seen it first hand people just panic like crazy just doing basic mask clearing drills and nearly kill there instructors trying to calm them down. But they still get a c card and could be your dive buddy some day. Most guys that are military or commercial divers are some of the most knowledgeable and safe guys to dive with. They have a lot of education behind them and know some times 10 times what the average recreational instructor knows. I cant under stand why some of these recreational training agency dont recognize the training commercial and military divers go through. Especially the military guys the know more then I will ever know but not till recently they had to go through the same bs open water class every other person that wanted to dive recreational had to.

DCBC if you are tough on you students then good for you keep it up. I belive the open water classes are to short and too basic. They need to get more in to dive physics and dive medicine. Every diver should be able to tell the sighs of DCS and Lung expansion injuries. Also all divers should be able to rescue there fellow diver and these skills are just lightly touched upon in the open water classes. They may be some day diving with an experienced diver and that person could have a problem and they wont have the training or the skills to assist in his or her rescue. Also basic first aid should also be added you should know CPR and rescue breathing.

Sorry about ranting but this is how I feel I could go on for ever

 

[DCBC]

DCBC if you are tough on you students then good for you keep it up. I belive the open water classes are to short and too basic. They need to get more in to dive physics and dive medicine. Every diver should be able to tell the sighs of DCS and Lung expansion injuries. Also all divers should be able to rescue there fellow diver and these skills are just lightly touched upon in the open water classes. They may be some day diving with an experienced diver and that person could have a problem and they wont have the training or the skills to assist in his or her rescue. Also basic first aid should also be added you should know CPR and rescue breathing.

Sorry about ranting but this is how I feel I could go on for ever

Thanks for your perspective on this. I too feel that rescue should be integrated into all basic diver training programs and it's a point of contention for me as well. Personally, I don't dive with a buddy who hasn't been trained in rescue techniques. Why have a buddy at all if he can't help you? It's suppose to work both ways.

 

[Gilldiver]

I have a good number of dive buddies who were/are commercial and ex military. These guys range from a nuclear reactor diver, bridge inspection/repair, seawall/sheetpile work, to a few 1st class and Master Chief/Master Diver (the real type) Navy guys. One or two are real ex-SEAL/UDT and one was EDU doing some of the Blind Mans Bluff stuff in the 70’s. To a man they are better divers then 99% of the recreation divers and know much more about real problems then 80-90%% of the better tech divers.

Where there are weaknesses it’s more with new gear and techniques, they don’t keep up with some of the new stuff, and some don’t keep up with new techniques. But they all can get the job done safely and completely. One had never seen a bungee computer mount till last weekend when I showed him mine, and one had a real hard time at first keeping his personel gear together when we went off, he was just too used to have the dive van and getting extras of whatever he had forgot. He had problems for a while when doing work in keeping track of his time and gas, too used to a top side tender doing it.

 

[DCBC]

I have a good number of dive buddies who were/are commercial and ex military. These guys range from a nuclear reactor diver, bridge inspection/repair, seawall/sheetpile work, to a few 1st class and Master Chief/Master Diver (the real type) Navy guys. One or two are real ex-SEAL/UDT and one was EDU doing some of the Blind Mans Bluff stuff in the 70’s. To a man they are better divers then 99% of the recreation divers and know much more about real problems then 80-90%% of the better tech divers.

Where there are weaknesses it’s more with new gear and techniques, they don’t keep up with some of the new stuff, and some don’t keep up with new techniques. But they all can get the job done safely and completely. One had never seen a bungee computer mount till last weekend when I showed him mine, and one had a real hard time at first keeping his personel gear together when we went off, he was just too used to have the dive van and getting extras of whatever he had forgot. He had problems for a while when doing work in keeping track of his time and gas, too used to a top side tender doing it.

I suppose I come from a different time, but I was taught: "One Man, One Kit." Every diver was responsible for his own personal equipment that he was to use on the operation. On the first day of training, the military diver you describe wouldn't have lasted past lunch. He would have been eaten for a morning snack by the Master Chief.

Salvage is a different matter, but as a free diver (no umbilical) you sink or swim with your Team. The Team doesn't tolerate screw-ups.

I guess times have changed...

 

[Gilldiver]

The diver I was talking about was never military, he was commercially trained and practiced. His bad habits came from years of bridge inspections where he always had a dive van with him with multiple extras or just about everything. On the bridge jobs they did have problems along the gulf coast with alligators and ended up having to post Gator guards whenever divers were in the water armed with shotguns.

 

[Akimbo]

… So my question is how do you feel your training as a military or commercial diver is (or is not) beneficial to you when you dive for recreation? Is there anything that you've learned during your training program that you feel should be included into a recreational program? Is there anything you would want your children to know before they were certified to dive without supervision, that they may not receive in their initial training?

It's hard for me to make the distinction in my recreational diving. My path started with an obsessive interest in diving thanks to Sea Hunt. I was certified in Scuba at 11 in 1962. Then came military diving schools through saturation in my early 20s. I found myself in the North Sea after that.

The military instructors acted like my civilian Scuba experience was worth well less than zero. Obviously, it helped a lot but they would never acknowledge it. It was kind of sweet when one of my Scuba/Second Class instructors that gave me the most crap came through Saturation training as a Master Diver when I was the teacher.

Since then, I had not paid much attention to recreational training — until recently. Judging from the few common-air-breathers I have met and the attitude in the diving community on the Internet, standards are frighteningly low. Basic swimming standards don’t appear to exist, dependence on equipment is indoctrinated, and understanding of diving physics and physiology is substituted for memorized rules. Almost everything they wear is critical life support and judged on price rather than understanding the function.

I never was a casual diver so cannot bring that perspective to the discussion. Here is my hypothesis on how the current state of diver training evolved. From my somewhat distant observations in the 1960 & 70s, it was initially inspired by quickie courses at tropical resorts that lasted hours. Basically, mask clearing, don’t touch the critters on this poster, and never stop breathing; now let's go have some fun (while the Eagle-eyed instructors played babysitter). Tourists were happy and some went home with expectations established and a wallet full of money wanting to buy regulators and air fills. Some shops said they needed real training and saw a lot of money walk out the door. Others figured out this wasn't such a bad concept.

Fast forward to today where quickie courses, a merit badge system, and dive store marketing is fully integrated and evolved. Sure the courses have a high rate of people who don’t continue diving, but most of those dollars… err I mean people wouldn't have passed the swimming test anyway. They buy some gear, pay for the course, and might come back for more courses because they know damned well they are not competent underwater.

There are a few diver training courses at Collages and the YMCA, but most appear to sing out of the same book except for actually requiring the ability to swim. I don’t think we can improve Scuba training without understanding how it got here and find a better business model. Sure there are a few good instructors, but very few.

 

[divermike1011]

If you don't mind a relative newbie's opinion... I'll start off by saying I am not a US Navy diver. I've spent the majority of my career on submarines as a nuke, and I only got into recreational diving a couple of years ago. Since I'm retiring this summer I'm starting to take more and more diving courses because I have this delusion I'll be able to put food on the table working as a recreational scuba instructor. I'll have to admit that thus far I've been pretty taken aback about how low the standards are as far as what is demanded of students; whether it comes to in-water skills, theoretical knowledge, or physical fitness. As I am not yet a dive professional I keep my mouth shut, my head down and I spend my "spare" time learning as much as I can. I think the biggest difference my time in the Navy has given me is my approach to diving. I'm not the fastest, or the most graceful son of a bitch out there with an aluminum 80 on his back, but I am calm, methodical, and I have a (growing) background of knowledge to base my decisions on under and above the water on. My hope as an instructor is to strike a balance between demanding excellence from my students while at the same time recognizing that what the average diver needs isn't always going to involve sub-ten minute 1000 yard swims. My personal goal is to get someone to the point the recognize their limitations, are safe, and realize that if they can avoid panic they'll probably be okay.

Michael

 

[Darol]

After all how could a surface-supplied diver have anything in common with a diver wearing scuba?

The first thing they would have in common is the risk factor.They are in an enviroment that can become fatal in an instant. I've witnessed some very thought provoking sites sport diving, people not even capable of clearing a mask in saltwater. It goes on and on and everyone has a story. You learn, or should I say, should have learned, the things necessary to survive, blowing the numo, bailout, ect. How many sport divers even try there octo before, or during a dive? Can a newly trained diver even relate to the old tables, now that dive computers do all the thinking for them?

IMHO diving almost becomes secondary with S S surface supplied. You are there to do a job. Risk assessment, nowing the hazzards, and being knowledgeable of what can happen when things go south, and what to do, is key to a successful operation. Commercial Dive Schools are very self overrated. Why, the time frame. How can you compare "weeks" in a class or tank, to "years" in the military? Or in the case of Sport Diving "hours" in a classroom. On another subject, dropping the "F" Bomb sounds macho, but in a lot of circles is a sign of ignorance.