Negative entry vs Using a downline

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have dived all over the Caribean, I have dived Fiji, and cold water sites like the Great Lakes, Catalina and Farnsworth Banks.....

That's not a whole lot of experience, when you get right down to it.

There is not one single place I could imagine wanting to dive at, where the use of a line for ascents and descents is not defective ( I am excluding all under Ice dives .....

That's what happens when you limit yourself to only wanting to experience diving in a handful of places in the world. Lots of us are better at imagining wanting to dive in a broader variation of conditions and environments.

I see descent/ascent lines as the domain of lazy captains that don't want to learn drift proceedures. ****

I would love to see you attempt some of our local wrecks ... say, the Governor or the Al Ind Es Ka Sea ... as a hot drop. Those two in particular can have some pretty serious current, particularly at the shallower depths. As you drop, the current can decrease, it can change direction, or it can rip. There's a reason you grapple those wrecks, and it has nothing to do with "lazy captains". It has everything to do with whether or not you want to spend your time on the wreck or just drifting around at 220-300 feet in featureless mud. Then there's the issue of spending an hour or more doing a drifting ascent, and hoping there's a boat within sight when you come to the surface.

Doing one of those without a down line would be really stupid, and highly unlikely to give you the dive you paid for.

We have plenty of days with zero current--and when this happens, the dives are still far superior without the nonsense of the lines.... If you had to do a wreck in 10 foot vis or less... I suppose that is an argument FOR the lines....but not a good one....

Some of the popular dives here in Lake Washington ... the mine sweepers, or the PB4Y bomber, for example, have no current. Vis can be poor, great, or variable ... you really have no way of knowing till you get down there, because it changes with depth. Typical depth, depending on the wreck is 140-200 feet. You don't want to drop the line on the wreck because doing so would damage what you're going down to look at. The line's typically connected to a danforth or a downrigger ball that you drop near the wreck. You follow the line down, tie off a reel to the downline, and sweep till you locate the wreck. Tie off your reel, do your dive, reel back to the line, and ascend back up it. It not only assures you have a good dive, it puts your ascent at a float where the boat is standing by fending off curious powerboaters and jet skiers. It's not just a good idea ... it's pretty much the only way you can assure yourself of being able to do that dive.

The only diver I see benefiting from the lines method, is the diver with poor equalization abilities.....for them this really may be their only way of not missing the target.

That's one reason someone might want a line, but I can "see" lots of others. Then again, maybe it's because I have a broader base of experience with certain environments than you do, and I don't assume that just because something works in my back yard it'll work the same for everybody in every other type of environment.

On a liveaboard in the Carribean, the boat will often anchor and you are free to dive in the no current area as far away as you would like....this means you can ignore the anchor line, and at the end of your dive, if along way away, you can snorkel back...or, you can have navigated back to the liveaboard u/w.....but use of the lines for going up or down is not relevant to diving on a big liveaboard. It is just the way they need to deal with such a large boat, and divers that are doing 6 dives per day..and getting in and out at all times.

I'll admit my experience on liveaboards is limited to just three ... in Komodo, Maldives and the Channel Islands. They were all different. In Komodo, dives were conducted from RIBs. You dropped in over the site, did your dive, and came up wherever ... the RIB would come get you. In the Maldives the dives were conducted off a smaller, but still fairly large (60-foot) dive boat. Some dives were hot drops, others weren't, depending on the site. But again we didn't need or use lines. In the Channel Islands, dives were conducted off the main boat, which was usually double-anchored. Not only were you expected to go down the lines, you were expected to find them and come back up them at the end of the dive. Not doing so sometimes meant having to surface-swim through heavy kelp beds or forcing the crew to launch the little chase boat to come pick you up.

Next week this time I'll be diving off the Nautilus Swell ... a liveaboard out of southern British Columbia. I expect they'll have their own rules for how they want you to dive. I doubt it'll have anything to do with deficient divers and lazy boat captains and everything to do with how the crew ... who is way more knowledgeable with local conditions than the divers ... expect will give you the best chances for having a successful dive.

As to the burning air issue.....We have a wreck called the Castor that some divers will opt to use a line on, because it is 110 feet deep, and they like the line for keeping their group together on ascent and at stops.... However, there is usually enough current on this wreck that pulling down the line becomes an arm workout.....you are fighting hard enough to hang on, that it is a lot like being on monkey bars.....for 100 feet. And....this hand over hand descent is slow....it will take several minutes for most divers to get down like this--whereas when we dive this wreck, the Captain drops us about 200 feet up current of it, and 30 seconds of easy swim-assisted falling later, we are on exactly the part of the wreck we want to be on...and we would see the line pulling divers a few minutes later..and they will have used up a significant amount of air getting down to the wreck that we did not....

The Castor...
[video=youtube_share;PIaXVw61qJI]http://youtu.be/PIaXVw61qJI[/video]
Whether we have 100 foot vis, or if it was after a storm and the vis was only 10 feet, this is ideally a negative entry, drift drop....whether there is current or not !

And another thing! Why in the world would you WANT to only get half of an exploring dive.....half, because at the half way point, you would have to turn around and go back the way you came--this 2nd half being wasted when you really want to spend every moment seeing more new structures....if you don't have to return the way you came to a line...if you could just go as far as you wanted, then come up where you wanted--wouldn't that be better?

... and that approach works great for that site, and those conditions. But why in the world would anyone think that same approach would work for everyone else in all conditions?

Once you experienced how easy this style of drift dropping is, you would DEMAND this of any boat you chartered.....

No I wouldn't ... I'd leave my ego home and listen to the advice of a boat crew who does the dives I'm paying them for every day, and who knows way better than me how to do them successfully.

And when I leave florida on Vacations elsewhere....I bring my inflatable torpedo float, that the boat follows on drift dives.

... unless, of course, the boat's anchored ... in which case they'll shake their head, call you a dumbass, and launch the chase boat to come retrieve you ...

Visit Palm Beach and I would be happy to convert you to this "dark side"....

... just because something works well in Palm Beach doesn't mean it works well ... or at all ... in other environments. Don't go to other parts of the world and assume you know better than those "lazy captains" how to dive there. That's a great way to put yourself in a situation where one of those "deficient" divers you like to disparage might just have to rescue you ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Akimbo]

Unless someone is going to hand me a camera, I usually hit the water swimming down off a boat... but I dive solo. It is courteous to let the crew know before though.

As far as a downline, I always prefer one and use it on ascent or in currents if it's there. It is dumb not to. Just to be clear, an anchorline is not a proper downline and can be too much of a PITA to hold onto in rolling seas.

I don't understand all the hand-wringing. Dive how ever you like. It’s up to each diver not to kill themselves, not a bunch of nannies on the stern or Internet.

 

[Colliam7]

There is not one single place I could imagine wanting to dive at, where the use of a line for ascents and descents is not defective ( I am excluding all under Ice dives .....I see descent/ascent lines as the domain of lazy captains that don't want to learn drift proceedures.

I wonder if this discussion is turning, unnecessarily, into an 'either-or' situation. I prefer negative entries - when I step to the entry point, or position myself to roll over the side, I am, and should be, ready to dive. My usual dive buddies and I can handle current and stay together. Drift dives are fun. Drift decos are an absolute blast. BUT, there are times when a drift descent from an up-current entry, to a wreck on the bottom may not be entirely practical. I do think (some) divers become needlessly dependent on having a line - doing a negative entry, in good visibility and no / minimal current, does not really require a line, whether I choose to agree with Dan on the particular term used to describe that. And, there are times when I do not think using a line, at least as a reference, is necessarily defective. We dove a WWII wreck off the NC coast last summer, sitting on the bottom at 245'. Three buddy teams, two with scooters, one without. Fair amount of current. Yes, the captain could have positioned the boat upcurrent, and we could have splashed and made a negative descent, and - given the divers involved, I suspect we all would have made it to the wreck. But, what if two pairs made it, and the third team overshot, and couldn't get back / never even saw the wreck? Sure, they could have then done a drifting ascent, completing whatever deco was needed, and the captain could have picked them up, then gone back to re-position the boat to follow the remaining divers as they ascended - arguably, an unnecessary fuel expenditure. And, the pair that missed the wreck completely would have been (understandably) PO'd at having spent a not insignificant amount of money, and endured a 2.5 hour boat ride, to miss getting on a wreck, when simply tying in might have helped them avoid that. I just don't see that as defective. It was easier - the the crew and the divers - to hook the wreck, have the teams splash (negative) and follow the line down, and use the line for deco stops on the ascent. We didn't pull ourselves down to the wreck (the divers with scooters just blasted on down), just used it as a reference while we descended. Yes, we clipped our jon lines to it at various stops on the ascent, for convenience (and laziness, perhaps).

About 4 years ago, I was helping a colleague with a tec class, diving out of Pompano. It was my job to splash ahead of the others, descend with a line (secured to a surface buoy) and tie in. The tec students, and the primary instructor then splashed and followed the line down, we did the dive, completed the required activities, untied from the wreck and did a drift deco, with the captain following the buoy. Over 3 days and 6 dives, I nailed the wrecks 4 times, dropped down about 40 yards away from one of them and swam over to it, but missed one of them completely - never saw it, and was never sure if the boat position was off a bit, or my descent rate was off, or what. In that case, it didn't matter - the actual wreck was incidental to the depth we were seeking, and the skills the divers were completing, and we executed the dive as a group drift. But, I / we didn't hit the intended wreck.

The point is, I am not sure that using a line has to be, by definition, defective, or the sign of a lazy captain. I do favor negative entries, I actually enjoy dive-bombing wrecks, but there may be times where having a line is simply a matter of practicality.

 

[TSandM]

I've dived where Dan is, and hot drops work pretty well with a good captain (and they're sort of fun). Bob's right, though -- hot dropping a wreck like the Diamond Knot, which sits in over a hundred feet of water, in an area of strong and unpredictable currents which can change with depth, where the visibility can be as low as ten feet, would be simply silly, and a good way to waste a long trip and an expensive fill.

When conditions permit, I'd much rather hot drop and drift than pull myself down a line. And I'd be even happier to point the nose of the scooter straight down and GO! But you have to have confidence in your gear, your team, and your ears to do that.

 

[billt4sf]

I've dived where Dan is, and hot drops work pretty well with a good captain (and they're sort of fun). Bob's right, though -- hot dropping a wreck like the Diamond Knot, which sits in over a hundred feet of water, in an area of strong and unpredictable currents which can change with depth, where the visibility can be as low as ten feet, would be simply silly, and a good way to waste a long trip and an expensive fill.

When conditions permit, I'd much rather hot drop and drift than pull myself down a line. And I'd be even happier to point the nose of the scooter straight down and GO! But you have to have confidence in your gear, your team, and your ears to do that.

That sounds like fun! But I should think that this confidence would be the confidence built up on quite a bit of diving experience. I am looking forward to trying my first hot drop at some point (in tropical waters with a buddy who has done it before, and great viz).

- Bill

 

[Redshift]

I do think (some) divers become needlessly dependent on having a line

Totally agree with that. I've seen many times, divers all bunched up grabbing a line when the visibility isn't that bad and there is no current. In those cases I stay away from the line and just use it as a reference.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've dived where Dan is, and hot drops work pretty well with a good captain (and they're sort of fun). Bob's right, though -- hot dropping a wreck like the Diamond Knot, which sits in over a hundred feet of water, in an area of strong and unpredictable currents which can change with depth, where the visibility can be as low as ten feet, would be simply silly, and a good way to waste a long trip and an expensive fill.

When conditions permit, I'd much rather hot drop and drift than pull myself down a line. And I'd be even happier to point the nose of the scooter straight down and GO! But you have to have confidence in your gear, your team, and your ears to do that.

I made several attempts on the Diamond Knot before I finally got on it. And the day I succeeded we grappled the wreck, dropped the ball overboard, and watched it (a 3-foot diameter ball) go underwater in the current. Waited about 40 minutes till it came back to the surface. The captain dropped us overboard about 200 yards upstream of the ball, and we surface-drifted down to where we could grab the granny line and pull ourselves down onto the wreck. Once on the wreck we got behind the structure, where the current was manageable. When it was time to surface, we swam above the structure and drifted with the current ... shooting a bag so the boat crew would know where we were. After about 20 minutes of deco I surfaced to find myself less than 100 yards from the ball attached to the downline. After getting on the boat I mentioned to the captain that I was surprised to come up so close to the entry point. He told me I did three complete circles, maybe a quarter mile in diameter, while I was doing my deco ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sunnyboy]

That's not a whole lot of experience, when you get right down to it.
...
Next week this time I'll be diving off the Nautilus Swell ... a liveaboard out of southern British Columbia. I expect they'll have their own rules for how they want you to dive. I doubt it'll have anything to do with deficient divers and lazy boat captains and everything to do with how the crew ... who is way more knowledgeable with local conditions than the divers ... expect will give you the best chances for having a successful dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

You will love it. The Swell is one awesome boat, with an excellent crew! I just finished a several-day dive trip with them (thanks, DUI!) and had a fantastic time. Even though I live and dive around Nanimo (Vancouver Island) all the time, it was great doing some new (to me) and different dive spots with the Swell.

 

[T.C.]

BS. Again. Dan, you blew the same BS last year on a similar thread about lines.

Despite you having dove "all over", please go dive the mid-atlantic where we anchor into the wrecks in a current. Negative entry on the stern downline to a granny line and to the anchor line to the wreck ~100+' etc, 15-50' viz. Free drops and free ascents are strictly verboten. Procedure is up and down the lines and wreck reels to and from on the wreck in marginal viz.

Don't want to do it? You don't dive. Don't like it? Too bad. But don't poopoo something you haven't done in situations that warrant these kinds of procedures.

To this I add the Spiegal Grove and Duane/Bibb in the Keys. It would be foolish to try these as a hot drop in some of the currents they have.

I agree that it cannot be a single solution answer...Wisdom is choosing the right moment.

Exactly. Some places you need these sort of descents, WPB is one; some places...many of them, in fact, it would be foolish and dangerous.

As usual, Dan, you've got your blinders on and anyone who doesn't dive exactly like you is somehow deficient. It's that incredible narrow-mindedness that makes your posts both entertaining and essentially worthless...

Well Said, on both your posts.



Odd that Dan didn't show back up. I had a question for him...about Gladius or Maximus investments...

 

[TGIF858]

I won't comment on any other locations, but when diving in Southern California, the visibility is often much poorer than other areas. The odds of finding a buddy at the bottom if you don't descend with them from the top are slim. The odds of losing them during the descent are good unless you start together, and even that doesn't ensure success. That's why we jump in positively buoyant, wait on the surface, and then descend together. We generally drop along the line to find wrecks because hitting the bottom even only 20 feet away from one can sometimes mean having to search for it in bad viz.