OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
gedunk once bubbled...
Have a great weekend
You too. I'm fixin' for a weekend of diving.
Mike
My wife, OW, and DIR?
- Thread starter Lost Yooper
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You too. I'm fixin' for a weekend of diving.
Mike
Yes.
Standards should go up. It should cost alot more. Down the street it's faster and cheaper and to the untrained eye it's all the same. We have no way of distinguishing ours from theirs. The name is the same.
Well I'm going to leave this chop busting contest soon. I have to go pack. I am literally going to go find a hole to crawl into, one filled with water. I hope the vis is good.
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Have fun, Mike. We'll see you up here on the 15th.
Mike
Mike
Yep you too. and we got gas, lots of gas. all kinds of gas. Now...if I could just find that book on how to mix it .
...just kidin 
...just kidin 
I have taken the advantage of reading many of th ewebsites suggested to me in this and the other "DIR" thread, and although I understand now and follow the evolvement of the "DIR" practice, I fail to see have being DIR will rebuild the coral reefs in Coz......Sure dragging consols, rot tillers etc do damage the reefs, but to the extent they have been damaged ?.....
You cannot convince me in anyway shape or form that DIR training will convert a bad diver into a good diver.....I think any further education and training and practice will hopefully do this..... not just DIR training.......A bad diver may always remain a bad diver........
Again please advise me of the following It is my belief that not all training organizations are for profit.....I thought (perhaops incorrectly ) that NAUI for eg was non-profit ??? I know PADI is a for profit company........ANd please don't fault any company for trying to make money....It is the "American" dream.....
ANyway I will be taking the cue of others and saying goodnight to the subject and thank the many of you for your education and help in at least my becoming educated in a very small manner the very basics of DIR/GUE.
Most importantly irregardless of anyones' beliefs...is that we are all able to be back this board another day after our diving......
You cannot convince me in anyway shape or form that DIR training will convert a bad diver into a good diver.....I think any further education and training and practice will hopefully do this..... not just DIR training.......A bad diver may always remain a bad diver........
Again please advise me of the following It is my belief that not all training organizations are for profit.....I thought (perhaops incorrectly ) that NAUI for eg was non-profit ??? I know PADI is a for profit company........ANd please don't fault any company for trying to make money....It is the "American" dream.....
ANyway I will be taking the cue of others and saying goodnight to the subject and thank the many of you for your education and help in at least my becoming educated in a very small manner the very basics of DIR/GUE.
Most importantly irregardless of anyones' beliefs...is that we are all able to be back this board another day after our diving......
Mike,
You mentioned:
Fin pivots- I think we all agree those are stupid. It's tough to explain to students WHY they are doing them in OW. As far as I know, only PADI requires them in OW.
Improper trim - Does anyone truly believe that any instructor deliberately teaches improper trim?
Sloppy divers become sloppy instructors unfortunately. (I'm an instructor trainer, and I'll correct sloppy skills when I see them). If you think that hands clasped, knees bent up at 90 degrees is the ONLY proper trim, I have no answer to that. Plenty of divers I know have perfect horizontal trim in other postures, ie. straight legs, arms folded across the chest, at their side, etc.
Vertical ascents/descents - The reasons for why you do them are purely theoretical. To keep insisting that it's the only correct way is, well I don't know what, just not supportable. Show me the research.
Snorkels -I think that we beat that one to death. With a snorkel.
Poor equipment configurations - There are excellent divers using all manner of gear. Which is most efficient I can't say, I haven't tried them all. I think I dive well with my "poodle" jacket. I will be trying a BP soon. Report to follow. All my students use a uniform gear configuration (except for the previously mentioned BP user) and practice with it. No danglies allowed.
Skills on knees - no agency requires this. It's simply for control. I look younger than I am and I intend to keep it that way, no gray hairs! As I've said before, I'm doing fewer skills this way as I become a better instructor. However, when I'm feeling the need for absolute order, down in the sand they go. You, Mike the Yooper, have probably never felt your heart go into your throat when you turn around for a second and can't find a student. You can't leave the ones in front of you to look for the one, and you can't find the one. You prevent this scenario by planting 'em where you can see them. They are BEGINNERS. If they hurt themselves, you have some 'splainin' to do.
What does this all mean? We need better insructors all around. I'm very familiar with "that agency's" standards to become an instructor. It's a joke IMHO. Been there, took and passed the course with half my brain tied behind my back. THAT'S what has to change, not the course content. (Except for the dreaded fin pivot)
Mike, once again, you know I'm not yellin at you, just my 2 cents.
Neil
You mentioned:
Fin pivots- I think we all agree those are stupid. It's tough to explain to students WHY they are doing them in OW. As far as I know, only PADI requires them in OW.
Improper trim - Does anyone truly believe that any instructor deliberately teaches improper trim?
Sloppy divers become sloppy instructors unfortunately. (I'm an instructor trainer, and I'll correct sloppy skills when I see them). If you think that hands clasped, knees bent up at 90 degrees is the ONLY proper trim, I have no answer to that. Plenty of divers I know have perfect horizontal trim in other postures, ie. straight legs, arms folded across the chest, at their side, etc.
Vertical ascents/descents - The reasons for why you do them are purely theoretical. To keep insisting that it's the only correct way is, well I don't know what, just not supportable. Show me the research.
Snorkels -I think that we beat that one to death. With a snorkel.
Poor equipment configurations - There are excellent divers using all manner of gear. Which is most efficient I can't say, I haven't tried them all. I think I dive well with my "poodle" jacket. I will be trying a BP soon. Report to follow. All my students use a uniform gear configuration (except for the previously mentioned BP user) and practice with it. No danglies allowed.
Skills on knees - no agency requires this. It's simply for control. I look younger than I am and I intend to keep it that way, no gray hairs! As I've said before, I'm doing fewer skills this way as I become a better instructor. However, when I'm feeling the need for absolute order, down in the sand they go. You, Mike the Yooper, have probably never felt your heart go into your throat when you turn around for a second and can't find a student. You can't leave the ones in front of you to look for the one, and you can't find the one. You prevent this scenario by planting 'em where you can see them. They are BEGINNERS. If they hurt themselves, you have some 'splainin' to do.
What does this all mean? We need better insructors all around. I'm very familiar with "that agency's" standards to become an instructor. It's a joke IMHO. Been there, took and passed the course with half my brain tied behind my back. THAT'S what has to change, not the course content. (Except for the dreaded fin pivot)
Mike, once again, you know I'm not yellin at you, just my 2 cents.
Neil
Hi Board,
I just signed up to this board and was reading up on some old posts. I ran across this one from The Lost Yooper (Mike) and felt that I should make a few comments as I am the instroketor that Mike is speaking about.
First, thank you to Mike and the others for the kind comments. I do appreciate it as I love teaching and it is very rewarding to see a diver come to enjoy the underwater world both comfortably and competently. I am glad that both you and Christy are happy with the cert dives.
As to the issues some of you seem to have with a snorkel and instructing, well you'll just have to report me to PADI. After the bill for instructor insurance this year I am just about finished with them anyway. I would even put it on my dive resume that I was reprimanded by PADI for not wearing the thing. In some circles, particulary the ones I run in, this will be applauded
.
I will refrain from my ranting about the current state of affairs with the scuba industry (in particular the certifying agencies), but all one has to do is get in the water and behold the mess. Not even addressing the fact that these people completely destroy the reef and visibility, what is more saddening is the fact that most cannot handle an emergency. Lucky for all that it just doesn't happen too often (at least it's not publicized) I do blame the instructors to a certain extent ...laiden with their split fins, humongous jacket BC's with a dozen+ D-rings, spare airs, a couple of computers, alternate air source/BC inflator combo's, and of course their monstrous snorkel with deluxe purge valve and dry valve feature... no wonder new divers don't stick with the sport. Once they buy all that crap, they are broke, and even if they can afford it, they soon find out that all those gizmos and gadgets are a hinderance to actually diving and having fun!! therw is always something that seems to be missing that cause them to either look like a mess in the water (and who wants to look like they do not know what they are doing??) or they don't feel comfortable due to a lack of confidence that is a direct result of a lack of competency.
Just as an end note, I don't really have a bias against PADI as an agency because if you really look at PADI 101, it does a good job of teaching what needs to be stressed for a solid foundation to safely enjoy scuba diving. Good buoyancy control, awarenes of the environment, the team, and the equipment, safe ascent/descent rates, streamlining and a horizontal postion in the water (I DO, however, teach horizontal ascents and descents as well, for those portions of the dive are the only times a diver does NOT want to be streamlined in the direction of travel---which is up and down), the problem arises when the instructors are left to determine what is mastery and what is/are the best equipment choices and what is the best way to handle an OOA. Here's where experience would really help an instructor teach a student what really works, not what the store happens to sell. I do believe that the majority of instructors honestly try to give a good course, but given the gadgety that is currently available in the industry and the lack of experience that is prevelant in the instructor ranks, it seems that even the instructors do not know what a good course consists of. Just my observations...not intended to offend anyone in particular except the people making money off of putting one over on the newer divers.
oops...I guess I didn't refrain too much...oh well...
I just signed up to this board and was reading up on some old posts. I ran across this one from The Lost Yooper (Mike) and felt that I should make a few comments as I am the instroketor that Mike is speaking about.
First, thank you to Mike and the others for the kind comments. I do appreciate it as I love teaching and it is very rewarding to see a diver come to enjoy the underwater world both comfortably and competently. I am glad that both you and Christy are happy with the cert dives.
As to the issues some of you seem to have with a snorkel and instructing, well you'll just have to report me to PADI. After the bill for instructor insurance this year I am just about finished with them anyway. I would even put it on my dive resume that I was reprimanded by PADI for not wearing the thing. In some circles, particulary the ones I run in, this will be applauded
. I will refrain from my ranting about the current state of affairs with the scuba industry (in particular the certifying agencies), but all one has to do is get in the water and behold the mess. Not even addressing the fact that these people completely destroy the reef and visibility, what is more saddening is the fact that most cannot handle an emergency. Lucky for all that it just doesn't happen too often (at least it's not publicized
) I do blame the instructors to a certain extent ...laiden with their split fins, humongous jacket BC's with a dozen+ D-rings, spare airs, a couple of computers, alternate air source/BC inflator combo's, and of course their monstrous snorkel with deluxe purge valve and dry valve feature... no wonder new divers don't stick with the sport. Once they buy all that crap, they are broke, and even if they can afford it, they soon find out that all those gizmos and gadgets are a hinderance to actually diving and having fun!! therw is always something that seems to be missing that cause them to either look like a mess in the water (and who wants to look like they do not know what they are doing??) or they don't feel comfortable due to a lack of confidence that is a direct result of a lack of competency.Just as an end note, I don't really have a bias against PADI as an agency because if you really look at PADI 101, it does a good job of teaching what needs to be stressed for a solid foundation to safely enjoy scuba diving. Good buoyancy control, awarenes of the environment, the team, and the equipment, safe ascent/descent rates, streamlining and a horizontal postion in the water (I DO, however, teach horizontal ascents and descents as well, for those portions of the dive are the only times a diver does NOT want to be streamlined in the direction of travel---which is up and down), the problem arises when the instructors are left to determine what is mastery and what is/are the best equipment choices and what is the best way to handle an OOA. Here's where experience would really help an instructor teach a student what really works, not what the store happens to sell. I do believe that the majority of instructors honestly try to give a good course, but given the gadgety that is currently available in the industry and the lack of experience that is prevelant in the instructor ranks, it seems that even the instructors do not know what a good course consists of. Just my observations...not intended to offend anyone in particular except the people making money off of putting one over on the newer divers.
oops...I guess I didn't refrain too much...oh well...Scubamedicjoe
Contributor
And on a note to that I too have nothing against Padi personally just feel they need some changes and for that matter I have made some recommendations to padi and SSI both, but like all red tape allot gets kicked back or they dont agree, as for the ones reading the post on Recommendations for DM Training?
I dont have anything against padi so lets drop padi against agencies.
I dont have anything against padi so lets drop padi against agencies.
Medic,
If you read my post completely you'll see that I am not ragging on PADI, I do say "I have no bias against PADI...". My issue is with the current state of affairs with the instruction that is available through almost all of the agencies. I do, for the most part, agree with those that believe it is the instructor that makes the class, not the agency. But the agencies, in an effort to build up a large instructor base, seem to have a poor requisite for experience needed to become an instructor. This is resulting in the lack of knowledge and skill in the divers that are being certified these days. Most do not know what is missing because "you do not know what you do not know". Ask a used car salesman what is his worst enemy, what is it that will keep him from selling lemons, and he'll tell you that it is an educated consumer. Same with Scuba, if the newbies only had a good education, there would not be the sale of all the crap/gadgetry. Once they realize that none of that equipment/gadgetry can make up for a lack of skill/practice, they end up putting it on the bay. And the lack of skill goes right back to day one, open water 101, and a lack of solid experience from their instructor. The instructor can only teach what he/she knows, and if you don't know much, you can't possibly teach much.
Once again, I do not purport in any way that this is the way with EVERY single instructor, and I am very sure that there are good instructors with good amounts of experience in many different diving environments. I have met some and those are who I try to emulate. But, I am growing painfully aware that this the exception these days and not the rule.
Please tell me what would be wrong with increasing the standards needed to become an instructor, for example raise the experience level to 500 dives. That would most certainly result in a more well rounded education for the student and also an easier ITC for the instructor candidate. The only downside is that it would drastically reduce the amount of instructors/instructor candidates out there and that would result in a reduction in funds for the agency....hmmm...inferior education for more $$$??? hmmm... Once again, no bias against PADI in particular...
My solution to trying to change the agencies is to not try to change anything. Most of the people that are dictating policy in these agencies don't appear to be doing any real diving anyway, if they did they would put dive education first. But they are money makers first and divers second (...or third...or fourth). You cannot convince these people of very much because the base from which they draw their policy seems to be grounded in $$$ instead of diving. I would vote with my dollar and seek out a new agency. I would try to find an agency that requires more from their instructors. Find one that is teaching courses that result in good, solid, safe divers. Find one with a reputation for excellence, not mediocrity and "who can certify the most newbies". Find an agency that actually asks the instructors to give above and beyond "the minimum standards". Find an agency that requires it's instructors to actually dive outside of their teaching, for their own personal enjoyment and maintenance of skill and education, and to a level above what they are certified to teach. That's the agency I would seek out. It is disappointing because the general public believes that because you are among the biggest, you must be doing the best job of instruction. Most who actually dive know better, but who will be looking out for the new consumer.
If you read my post completely you'll see that I am not ragging on PADI, I do say "I have no bias against PADI...". My issue is with the current state of affairs with the instruction that is available through almost all of the agencies. I do, for the most part, agree with those that believe it is the instructor that makes the class, not the agency. But the agencies, in an effort to build up a large instructor base, seem to have a poor requisite for experience needed to become an instructor. This is resulting in the lack of knowledge and skill in the divers that are being certified these days. Most do not know what is missing because "you do not know what you do not know". Ask a used car salesman what is his worst enemy, what is it that will keep him from selling lemons, and he'll tell you that it is an educated consumer. Same with Scuba, if the newbies only had a good education, there would not be the sale of all the crap/gadgetry. Once they realize that none of that equipment/gadgetry can make up for a lack of skill/practice, they end up putting it on the bay. And the lack of skill goes right back to day one, open water 101, and a lack of solid experience from their instructor. The instructor can only teach what he/she knows, and if you don't know much, you can't possibly teach much.
Once again, I do not purport in any way that this is the way with EVERY single instructor, and I am very sure that there are good instructors with good amounts of experience in many different diving environments. I have met some and those are who I try to emulate. But, I am growing painfully aware that this the exception these days and not the rule.
Please tell me what would be wrong with increasing the standards needed to become an instructor, for example raise the experience level to 500 dives. That would most certainly result in a more well rounded education for the student and also an easier ITC for the instructor candidate. The only downside is that it would drastically reduce the amount of instructors/instructor candidates out there and that would result in a reduction in funds for the agency....hmmm...inferior education for more $$$??? hmmm... Once again, no bias against PADI in particular...
My solution to trying to change the agencies is to not try to change anything. Most of the people that are dictating policy in these agencies don't appear to be doing any real diving anyway, if they did they would put dive education first. But they are money makers first and divers second (...or third...or fourth). You cannot convince these people of very much because the base from which they draw their policy seems to be grounded in $$$ instead of diving. I would vote with my dollar and seek out a new agency. I would try to find an agency that requires more from their instructors. Find one that is teaching courses that result in good, solid, safe divers. Find one with a reputation for excellence, not mediocrity and "who can certify the most newbies". Find an agency that actually asks the instructors to give above and beyond "the minimum standards". Find an agency that requires it's instructors to actually dive outside of their teaching, for their own personal enjoyment and maintenance of skill and education, and to a level above what they are certified to teach. That's the agency I would seek out. It is disappointing because the general public believes that because you are among the biggest, you must be doing the best job of instruction. Most who actually dive know better, but who will be looking out for the new consumer.
Scubamedicjoe
Contributor
BCS man I wish I could take that post and fram it.
If you read the disagreements I have been having with others on
Recommendations for DM Training?
you would see thats exactly what I been trying to say but not as good as you did !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as I have both Padi and SSI ratings
persinally I feel my SSI training was better and in more dpeth they actually required more dives , more hrs and more actually dives we even as a option for our Dive con class did a field trip granted this was optional but we went and did some cold water diving, and deep diving , wreck diving (which we do allot of coast in NC) something out of the ordanary with most class and allot of navication man do I remember that part hehe
any way I too feel that the agencies too need to up there standards and requirments .
If you read the disagreements I have been having with others on
Recommendations for DM Training?
you would see thats exactly what I been trying to say but not as good as you did !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as I have both Padi and SSI ratings
persinally I feel my SSI training was better and in more dpeth they actually required more dives , more hrs and more actually dives we even as a option for our Dive con class did a field trip granted this was optional but we went and did some cold water diving, and deep diving , wreck diving (which we do allot of coast in NC) something out of the ordanary with most class and allot of navication man do I remember that part hehe
any way I too feel that the agencies too need to up there standards and requirments .
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