My wife, OW, and DIR?

[Lost Yooper]

Cathie,

I understand what everyone here is saying, but we're talking about a stupid snorkel here! The guy sacrificed requiring the use of a snorkel (a snorkel!!) for demonstrating proper trim, proper buoyancy control, long hose air sharing, and proper buddy skills. These are things that are apparantly merely brushed on in other OW classes (which is apparent when we take a look around).

We're talking about a friggin' snorkel here for cripes sake! A snorkel!

Jeesh.

Mike

 

[Butch103]

roakey once bubbled...

DIR divers don't call poodle jackets dangerous. The non-DIR divers accuse us of saying that all the time (your post is a case in point), but that's your problem, not ours.

We WILL call them inefficient, sub-optimal, non-hydrodynamic, non-modular and not *as* safe as a backplate and wing. We’ll also point out that they encourage poor configurations, trim and equipment.

But they certainly are not dangerous.

We also call them poodle jackets from time to time, too, because it describes what they look like so perfectly!

Roak

No setup at all...I was asking a very serious question....I asked that question,because that is the perception I have from the few psots i have read...I have since read a couple of other threads since I posted the question. And in some cases it appears that this is the case...If I am wrong to those I offend I apologize.......I ask question to not insult but to clarify in my own mind what I believe the intent of the message was.......


Roakey....referring to Jacket BCs as "poodles" IMHO a demeaning insult to those who wear them.....Why the insult ??
Because you follow the DIR theory/practice is no need to insult you or you r configuration and/or gear setup. Again IMHO this type of comment does create the illusion that DIR believers are so dammed arragant. I am sure that this not the case with all DIR divers.

I am curious and pose this question to any of the long time divers out there....NOT to those who have lots of dives in the past 5-6 years, but those who started diving many years ago, perhaps pre-horse collar days and ask this...was there as much contriversy when BCs became the vogue ???

I am asking these questions to educate myself.......not give anyone the opportunity to take shots at me or other divers....If someone feels the need to take personal shots at another for asking a question....GTH of the board............Go back to chatting with children on some other board or forum.....

 

[Genesis]

I'm relatively recently certified, but have been doing a LOT of diving since I got my card. A couple of times a week, and always more than one dive at a time (if I'm gonna run the boat, I'm gonna go more than once)

I've got a Nighthawk, which is pretty decent. Its got bungied buoyancy cells, and far, far more lift than I will ever need. With my weighting worked out (which, by the way, I did DURING CLASS and have not had to change since!) I have very little air in my BC at depth, and zero hanging just below the surface with little air in my tank.

I've heard it all. I made the "mistake" of commenting that I was going to try a backpack and wings, and was thinking of trying the long hose configuration. The instant commentary from the "pros" was that the long hose "required more training" and was "unsafe" until I got it, and it was stupid and useless in OW anyway. Besides, what did I want a backpack and wings for? That's a tech outfit.

Oh? And the Nighthawk isn't? It can take doubles, you know. Its got VASTLY more buoyancy than you need for OW.

Long hose entanglement? I have more trouble with the SHORT hose brushing up against things; I'm VERY situationally aware of where my kit is underwater, but the damn thing sticks out above my shoulder and is thus the first thing to bump something! As for the "give away the primary" deal, I'm ALREADY DOING THAT, since I have an Air2 on my BC - so if someone is out, guess what I have to do ALREADY?

The net change? How I route the primary hose and the fact that the secondary doesn't have to be hunted for if I need it - I KNOW where it is, right under my chin. Is it a safety improvement? I don't know and we can argue that all day - but what I DO know is that its not a safety DECREASE!

As for the backpack? Its SMALLER, damnit! And, with a steel plate I can drop 6lbs of weight - assuming the Nighthawk has NO inherent buoyancy (I wouldn't bet on that). Why do I need a double-capable system - and that much lift - in open water? I don't!

Skills? I do most of my ascents at an angle, primarily because I usually come up a nearer-to-vertical anchor line, but I hang horizontally at safety stops, primarily to keep the yahoo's below and around me from banging into me; I can see them first, and if there's a lot of them I get OFF the line and just hang there. They look ay me funny - and they can bite me. I hang horizontally because its more COMFORTABLE and CONVENIENT; the gas exchange arguments are great for academics, but that's not why I do it that way.

I do deep stops too, and not because I was taught to do so - but because what I understand of the science says they make sense and if you have the gas for it, why not?

I'll never be "DIR" by design. I have a computer in a "small" console on my SPG hose. I like it there. Its on a retractor (another "non-DIR" thing), and I like THAT too. So what? I'm not interested in meeting someone ELSE's standards - only MINE. And for me, what works and is comfortable - and makes SENSE - is what I'm going to do with my kit.

If I get involved in serious caving then I'll go to some kind of standardized configuration - for safety reasons. But in open water? Naw. I'll do what works for me AND MY BUDDY, makes me the most efficient underwater, keeps me from lugging around crap that I have no use for, and anyone else who doesn't like it can snicker if they want. If I and my buddy like the way we each are kitted, and we both enjoy the dive, then unless you can show me how what I'm doing is UNSAFE (and prove it, not just make a bald assertion) you're the one who's out of line.

 

[WreckWriter]

Butch103 once bubbled...
was there as much contriversy when BCs became the vogue ???

Primary no because communication was much more limited then. There were people, quite a few, who refused to wear them until they became mandatory on boats.

My first experience with a "BC" was in my basic class in 1973. The instructor had one (it was an airline safety vest, the kind you can blow up by mouth or jerk a lanyard that pops a CO2 cartridge) he held it up and said "this is a flotation vest. It's for girls". He tossed it in the corner and that was the last we saw of it.

There were also no SPGs, we had j-valves on our 72s. We put our tank (held in backpack) on by slipping our arms through the straps and picking it up and tossing it over our head.

Things have evolved from there obviously. In pretty much all cases they have elvolved for the betterment of the sport. They continue to evolve. DIR is just another step in that evolution.

Tom

 

[Butch103]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


Primary no because communication was much more limited then. There were people, quite a few, who refused to wear them until they became mandatory on boats.

My first experience with a "BC" was in my basic class in 1973. The instructor had one (it was an airline safety vest, the kind you can blow up by mouth or jerk a lanyard that pops a CO2 cartridge) he held it up and said "this is a flotation vest. It's for girls". He tossed it in the corner and that was the last we saw of it.

There were also no SPGs, we had j-valves on our 72s. We put our tank (held in backpack) on by slipping our arms through the straps and picking it up and tossing it over our head.

Things have evolved from there obviously. In pretty much all cases they have elvolved for the betterment of the sport. They continue to evolve. DIR is just another step in that evolution.

Tom

Thanks for your input.....evrything "new" is generally controversial...(and I understand DIR is not necessarily new). And in my limited lifetime I n=have seen a lot o f"new" theories , inventions etc........in most cases not all of the theory works in practice and was therefore modified over time. Bits and pieces have been adapted by others to make create "new" ideas. From what limited reading I have done (99%) on this board, I have to agree that some DIR ideas make sense (mostly common sense) and some appear to be more geared to the other controversial word <S> "tech-diving".............

I think it is up to all of us to do a proper investigation into the DIR theory and decide if some or all the ideas work for us. Any education is good education...you may not ever use it , but one never knows. I may never become a "DIR" diver, but I may be able to recognize one and observe their technique and gear config and perhaps see some thing that makes further sense and perhaps be able to discuss with some intelligence (albeit limited)about their diveing techniques and gear.........................

 

[roakey]

Butch103 once bubbled...
Roakey....referring to Jacket BCs as "poodles" IMHO a demeaning insult to those who wear them.....Why the insult ??

Feel free to call my wings "bat wings", "back flappers" anything you'd like, I'm comfortable with the quality and functionality of my equipment that the name doesn't matter.

Just don't call them BWOD, because *that* would be inaccurate.

An inflated jacket BC looks like a poodle show clip, hence the name.

A jacket BC floats you high in the water, feels good in the dive shop and is a spectacular fashion accessory that you can attach all sorts of stuff to. Some fashion-tech BCs comes festooned with so many D rings that you can drop some weight from your belt.

In fact, jacket BCs do all but one thing very, very well.

That one thing that a jacket BC isn’t very good at is supporting your diving in an efficient manner DURING the dive itself.

But if you goal is to be the Caribbean equivalent of a snow bunny, they're great!

Why do I make fun of sub-optimal equipment? Because of the continuing disservice the cookie-cutter agencies, equipment manufacturers and shops foist upon their unsuspecting victims. I’m frustrated.

Because airfare is so low I’m heading to Cozumel in two weeks for a couple days of weenie diving (nothing wrong with weenie diving!) I was there in the early 80s, when I went back about four years ago it looked as if a bulldozer had been over the reefs! I expect to see the same things this time too: Vertically trimmed divers kicking and dragging octos and SPGs across the reef, with absolutely no clue as to what they’re doing. Bad instruction combined with bad gear from bad shops.

I don’t dive a BP and wing because I’m technical (whatever that is), I dive it because it’s better, period.

Roak

 

[TCDiver1]

WreckWriter once bubbled...


Primary no because communication was much more limited then. There were people, quite a few, who refused to wear them until they became mandatory on boats.

My first experience with a "BC" was in my basic class in 1973. The instructor had one (it was an airline safety vest, the kind you can blow up by mouth or jerk a lanyard that pops a CO2 cartridge) he held it up and said "this is a flotation vest. It's for girls". He tossed it in the corner and that was the last we saw of it.

There were also no SPGs, we had j-valves on our 72s. We put our tank (held in backpack) on by slipping our arms through the straps and picking it up and tossing it over our head.

Things have evolved from there obviously. In pretty much all cases they have elvolved for the betterment of the sport. They continue to evolve. DIR is just another step in that evolution.

Tom

As i recall my basic OW instructor substituted "sissies" for "girls" & that was in 1977.

IMO it's always been this way. Same argument, different topics. My way/gear is better than yours so you are a lesser diver than me ..... blah, blah, blah!

Know this; most divers are adventure seekers, most adventure seekers are type A personalities, most type A's have strong opinions .... POOF .... ready made argument fodder.

Nothing beats your own, heavenly issued, Mark 1, Mod 0, brain housing group. A traditional OW cert will serve you well if all standards & concepts are adequately taught by the instructor & you follow and practice them.

Taking a DIRF class WILL help any diver become a better diver but it is NOT a "prequisite" to becoming a good/ safe recreational diver. You can wear a "poddle jacket" and still make the choice to not be a "rototiller." It happens everyday! My poddle jacket works just fine .........ruff.......ruff!

And yes WreckWriter, i agree with you on the evolution thing.

Evolution can be a messy thing!

 

[Lost Yooper]

Butch,

I share Roakey's frustration with the entire industry as well. All one has to do is step back and open their eyes to see what's going on. I'll openly recognize good divers, good gear manufacturers, good instructors, and good agencies when they deserve it. I have no vested interest in any opinion I share, unlike many others you'll hear from. I don't make a dime from the scuba industry. I call it as I see it, and I see a lot of ineptitude out there, the net result of which is harm to the industry as a whole (like Roakey's Cozumel example). There are solutions to most of it, but that's not what people in the industry are interested in ($$$). Motives often speak wonders.

Take care,

Mike

 

[Diversauras]

But staying out of this continuing DIR discussion just doesn't fit into my personality.

I don't think DIR is bad, but I agree with Mike F that NO instructor can delete a skill or part of the cirriculm and still meet the agency standards. And to be sure, if you don't meet the standards your insurance is invalidated and so is your (legal) ability to teach in the USA.

Since some of the members here have seen fit to not fill in their profile data, it makes it difficult to figure out what level diver I am talking to. Are you a 200 /500 /5000 dive diver? Instructor or OW. What kind of dive experience do you have, is it all cave or all DIR or have you dived in all conditions? Some of what you say makes sense, some of shows your ignorance. What your background is makes a huge difference in these conversations, for all I know you have 50 dives and 2000 posts.

Someplace in one of those courses that didn't contribute directly to making a better diver of me I seem to remember a quote something like "me thinks she doth protest too much". You do. I wonder what you are really doing, preaching your doctrine because you honestly think it is the best way to dive (because it sure as heck is not the only way to dive) or impressing other proselytizing converts (see the baboon beating his chest?).

What may be the perfect solution for you in a given set of circumstances does not make it the universal answer to all questions.

 

[CuriousMe]

gedunk once bubbled...


<snip>.

Taking a DIRF class WILL help any diver become a better diver but it is NOT a "prequisite" to becoming a good/ safe recreational diver. You can wear a "poddle jacket" and still make the choice to not be a "rototiller." It happens everyday! My poddle jacket works just fine .........ruff.......ruff!

And yes WreckWriter, i agree with you on the evolution thing.

Evolution can be a messy thing!

Thanks for saying this gedunk....I've got to say that the thing that get's my hackles up is the idea that because I use a BC (FWIW I LOVE my Seaquest Diva LX), I'm automatically a rototiller! It's that black and white all or nothing implication that I hear from some DIR type folks that makes me not want to to even consider the class.


Peace,
Cathie