I can't come up this year. Maybe next. Sure would love to.
Tom
My wife, OW, and DIR?
- Thread starter Lost Yooper
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I can't come up this year. Maybe next. Sure would love to.
Tom
MSP Rescue Diver
Contributor
Mike - Aren't PADI instructors supposed to wear a snorkel when teaching, as well as require and train their students to wear one in order to certify them? I believe Mike Ferrara and other instructors stated this in the "Who Wears A Snorkel" thread".
Marc
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Yeah, that's probably the case. Fortunately, there are a few instructors out there that will go above and beyond to produce quality students. If that means breaking a few foolish rules, then so be it. Personally, I would rather be taught (and have my wife taught) by someone who has a clue than someone who mindlessly follows whatever PADI (or most of the others) dreams up. The snorkel rule is beyond rediculas, IMO.
Mike
Mike,
Interesting post, and I'm glad your wife is enjoying the diving. My wife is the one who got ME diving. I got a few comments and questions:
I would like to know what things the evil
PADI instructor taught her that were just plain wrong versus incompletely or inadequately taught. There is a difference, n'est pas? And I mean universally wrong, not just non-GUE. I'm not giving you a tough time, I would like to improve MY teaching too.
When you teach anything (I teach other things, too), a compromise due to time constraints is often necessary. What is good to know? What is necessary to know? What exercises can be taught so that necessary skills taught at the basic level can develop properly without guidance?
I think you see what I'm getting at. Just because PADI dude didn't teach Yoopette to dive with her hands together or how to frog kick doesn't make him incompetent. On the other hand, if she never got a clue from him about attitude and buoyancy, he was deficient in his teaching, and probably contributed to the ranks of rototillers.
I can teach students what the GUE guy taught your wife. All I need is that extra weekend.
As a side note, I just cerified a guy who showed up to my first class all decked out in backplate, wings, long hose and bungied backup, asking if I would let him be in the class with his gear. (He was an internet-made expert). I said sure, since I've read and seen enough info to at least have a clue! Everything was neat and tidy except he showed up to the first pool session with a SS backplate, STA and HP 120 in a wetsuit. Yikes. Anchored to the bottom of the pool. Gave him an AL rental tank, and next week he had an AL backplate. Much better. Air sharing with long hose and snorkel is humorous at first, dangerous in reality. We got rid of that!
After that, skills are skills. He will need to go work with another instructor to learn any real "tech" diving techniques, but he now has the basics. This is also the second class I have taught where skills are done hovering and not on the bottom. (It's not such a big deal as it turns out). Except of course for FIN PIVOTS. ARGH! I have to apologize to every PADI class I teach about this, but standards require it, so I hold my nose and get it done. I am going to write a letter to PADI about this skill in OW, questioning its validity and reqesting it be dropped. Like they'll listen. Thank YOU for listening.
Neil
Interesting post, and I'm glad your wife is enjoying the diving. My wife is the one who got ME diving. I got a few comments and questions:
I would like to know what things the evil
PADI instructor taught her that were just plain wrong versus incompletely or inadequately taught. There is a difference, n'est pas? And I mean universally wrong, not just non-GUE. I'm not giving you a tough time, I would like to improve MY teaching too.When you teach anything (I teach other things, too), a compromise due to time constraints is often necessary. What is good to know? What is necessary to know? What exercises can be taught so that necessary skills taught at the basic level can develop properly without guidance?
I think you see what I'm getting at. Just because PADI dude didn't teach Yoopette to dive with her hands together or how to frog kick doesn't make him incompetent. On the other hand, if she never got a clue from him about attitude and buoyancy, he was deficient in his teaching, and probably contributed to the ranks of rototillers.
I can teach students what the GUE guy taught your wife. All I need is that extra weekend.
As a side note, I just cerified a guy who showed up to my first class all decked out in backplate, wings, long hose and bungied backup, asking if I would let him be in the class with his gear. (He was an internet-made expert). I said sure, since I've read and seen enough info to at least have a clue! Everything was neat and tidy except he showed up to the first pool session with a SS backplate, STA and HP 120 in a wetsuit. Yikes. Anchored to the bottom of the pool. Gave him an AL rental tank, and next week he had an AL backplate. Much better. Air sharing with long hose and snorkel is humorous at first, dangerous in reality. We got rid of that!
After that, skills are skills. He will need to go work with another instructor to learn any real "tech" diving techniques, but he now has the basics. This is also the second class I have taught where skills are done hovering and not on the bottom. (It's not such a big deal as it turns out). Except of course for FIN PIVOTS. ARGH! I have to apologize to every PADI class I teach about this, but standards require it, so I hold my nose and get it done. I am going to write a letter to PADI about this skill in OW, questioning its validity and reqesting it be dropped. Like they'll listen. Thank YOU for listening.
Neil
The eternal snorkel argument...
I don't use a snorkel for the vast majority of my diving (ok...virtually never). However, as instructors of new divers we are responsible for more than teaching them to dive. We are responsible for seeing to it that they have a well rounded foundation in general watermenship skills. Skin diving skills are a required part of an OW class. Students are taught to use a snorkel because they may choose to snorkel (with or without scuba) or freedive sometime. How embarasing it would be to have one of your student suffer a near drowning while trying to snorkel away a surface interval while on a Caribbean vacation. IMO every diver should know how to use a snorkel. Once they know how it is just a tool that they can use when they choose.
Not teaching trim, buoyancy control or team diving skills is IMO wrong. Failure to make sure a student is able to use a snorkel is also neglecting part of their education. Teaching snorkel use will not hurt the students trim, buoyancy control or team diving skills (does no harm)
Snorkel regulator exchanges are a required skill to demonstrate in OW. May be the world would be none the worse for wear if we did away with them but that is not for one instructor, who thinks he knows something that nobody else knows, to decide. However, every PADI instructor has a contractul (I believe it would qualify as such) obligation to teach the class in its entirety before issuing a PADI card. Why? Because PADI,s name is on the card and this instructor is permitted to issue it only under certain conditions. A violation of this nature could easily result in a expulsion. Unfortunately for this instructor there is now plenty of people who know.
BTW for all on this board...All PADI instructors and DM's are obligated to report standards violations that they have first hand knowlege of.
Blatantly violating an agreement that you willingly enter into does not show good character or judgment IMO. An instructor can teach for any agency he/she chooses.
I don't use a snorkel for the vast majority of my diving (ok...virtually never). However, as instructors of new divers we are responsible for more than teaching them to dive. We are responsible for seeing to it that they have a well rounded foundation in general watermenship skills. Skin diving skills are a required part of an OW class. Students are taught to use a snorkel because they may choose to snorkel (with or without scuba) or freedive sometime. How embarasing it would be to have one of your student suffer a near drowning while trying to snorkel away a surface interval while on a Caribbean vacation. IMO every diver should know how to use a snorkel. Once they know how it is just a tool that they can use when they choose.
Not teaching trim, buoyancy control or team diving skills is IMO wrong. Failure to make sure a student is able to use a snorkel is also neglecting part of their education. Teaching snorkel use will not hurt the students trim, buoyancy control or team diving skills (does no harm)
Snorkel regulator exchanges are a required skill to demonstrate in OW. May be the world would be none the worse for wear if we did away with them but that is not for one instructor, who thinks he knows something that nobody else knows, to decide. However, every PADI instructor has a contractul (I believe it would qualify as such) obligation to teach the class in its entirety before issuing a PADI card. Why? Because PADI,s name is on the card and this instructor is permitted to issue it only under certain conditions. A violation of this nature could easily result in a expulsion. Unfortunately for this instructor there is now plenty of people who know.
BTW for all on this board...All PADI instructors and DM's are obligated to report standards violations that they have first hand knowlege of.
Blatantly violating an agreement that you willingly enter into does not show good character or judgment IMO. An instructor can teach for any agency he/she chooses.
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Hey Neil,
As I write this, I'm trying to pick my words carefully so I don't come acrossed as insulting every PADI instructor on the planet. That's not my intention when I go after the various organizations.
There are a lot of little bad habits that the recreational agencies instill in their students right off the bat. I'm talking about the fin pivots, improper trim, vertical ascents/descents, snorkels, poor equipment configurations, doing skills on their knees, etc.... The list goes on. Does it really take that much longer to start out on the right foot? My wife had no pool time with her gear and didn't have weeks of lecture about it, and she was doing great in four OW dives. She was held to a higher standard than normal PADI students because that's what the instructor wanted. PADI "standards" are developed around producing large numbers of students in the shortest time possible. Does that make sense?
When I was at Gilboa this past weekend, there were a lot of recreational classes going on. I counted no less than 4 instructors with danglies things from unclipped SPG's to their octos (yet they had their snorkels!). Their students followed suit. I wouldn't even try to keep track of what I saw of other divers. By Sunday afternoon, my newly certified wife was laughing at the comedy there. It's like night and day! I mean take a look around you when you're all diving! Look at the pics in the manuals and in the dive magazines. It ain't a pretty site, if you know what you're looking at.
Look, it is clearly evident that most agencies (in fact, the industry at large) are primarily interested in producing large amounts of students in the shortest time possible. They want the quick and easy. That's the demand. It's only natural that most instructors will feel the same pressures and follow suit. That certainly doesn't make it right. It may not even be the instructors fault. Heck, most of them don't know any better either. They do what they are taught -- right, wrong, or otherwise.
If you ask me if PADI (or any of the others) is putting out competant divers, I would say that most divers are lucky their gear doesn't fail too often.
Mike
As I write this, I'm trying to pick my words carefully so I don't come acrossed as insulting every PADI instructor on the planet. That's not my intention when I go after the various organizations.
There are a lot of little bad habits that the recreational agencies instill in their students right off the bat. I'm talking about the fin pivots, improper trim, vertical ascents/descents, snorkels, poor equipment configurations, doing skills on their knees, etc.... The list goes on. Does it really take that much longer to start out on the right foot? My wife had no pool time with her gear and didn't have weeks of lecture about it, and she was doing great in four OW dives. She was held to a higher standard than normal PADI students because that's what the instructor wanted. PADI "standards" are developed around producing large numbers of students in the shortest time possible. Does that make sense?
When I was at Gilboa this past weekend, there were a lot of recreational classes going on. I counted no less than 4 instructors with danglies things from unclipped SPG's to their octos (yet they had their snorkels!). Their students followed suit. I wouldn't even try to keep track of what I saw of other divers. By Sunday afternoon, my newly certified wife was laughing at the comedy there. It's like night and day! I mean take a look around you when you're all diving! Look at the pics in the manuals and in the dive magazines. It ain't a pretty site, if you know what you're looking at.
Look, it is clearly evident that most agencies (in fact, the industry at large) are primarily interested in producing large amounts of students in the shortest time possible. They want the quick and easy. That's the demand. It's only natural that most instructors will feel the same pressures and follow suit. That certainly doesn't make it right. It may not even be the instructors fault. Heck, most of them don't know any better either. They do what they are taught -- right, wrong, or otherwise.
If you ask me if PADI (or any of the others) is putting out competant divers, I would say that most divers are lucky their gear doesn't fail too often.
Mike
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
Mike,
If PADI is low enough to expell an instructor for not requiring a snorkel, then... If an instructor is low enough to turn another instructor in for it...
It would take a real scumbag of an organization to do something like that, and it would take an even bigger scumbag to turn someone in for it -- contracts and crap aside. I suppose there no shortage of people like that which is why I went back and edited the name of one of the best instructors I've ever met. It's a bloody shame. I don't see any "character" in that at all. I just see a scumbag.
Mike
If PADI is low enough to expell an instructor for not requiring a snorkel, then... If an instructor is low enough to turn another instructor in for it...
It would take a real scumbag of an organization to do something like that, and it would take an even bigger scumbag to turn someone in for it -- contracts and crap aside. I suppose there no shortage of people like that which is why I went back and edited the name of one of the best instructors I've ever met. It's a bloody shame. I don't see any "character" in that at all. I just see a scumbag.
Mike
In our work and our life there are many "stupid" rules we must follow. Some rules we agree to follow and some we a forced to follow. Here we are talking about willingly not doing something we agreed to do. If we don't believe that we want to do it we should not agree to do it. PADI has the RIGHT to decide what a PADI card means. If an instructor does not approve he can teach somewhere else. If a student doesn't approve they should study somewhere else. If GUE doesn't approve they should issue their own card.
Agency instructors in many ways enjoy a certain amount of support due to the industry acceptance of the standards we follow. Insurance coverage and college credit for our students are a couple.
Are you aware that insurance companies require the instructor to follow the standards of the agancy for which he teaches. Failure to do so can void the policy. If the insurance companies thaught we were all designing our own classes we would not have this protection. An instructor who violates the standards risks not having insurance coverage in the case of an accident. His decision to ignore standards can have a direct impact on your (the students) financial well being.
This guy may be the best instructor in the world but he does not have the right to decide what goes into a PADI class, Only PADI can do that.
We have standards and for that matter laws that should be changed. The way we change them is by actively participating and contributing in the precess. Other courses of action have penalties.
I was not insinuating I had a desire to report anything. I, as well as others here, have no first hand knowlege. We know only what you told us.
But really who has been wronged? Who is the scumbag? Where I come from, commiting to do a thing that one has no intention of doing puts one well on their way.
Based on all the principals I am aware of there is little room to argue. A single line in the standards may seem to be of little importance but the fact that we have standards and follow them is EXTREMELY important.
What GUE requirements might this guy choose to leave out of a GUE cave 2 class because he decides it is silly. The trend and it's implication is not very good.
There are changes I would like to see in the standards. I for one, do not trust this guy to make them on his own without any process or checks or VALIDATION.
I give him a pat on the back for teaching trim. I think every recreational agency on the face of the planet would agree that he is dead wrong in ommitting a skill that is required by most if not all (recreational) agencies.
In tech diving we don't use snorkels. In recreational diving they are used often by those who know how.
Agency instructors in many ways enjoy a certain amount of support due to the industry acceptance of the standards we follow. Insurance coverage and college credit for our students are a couple.
Are you aware that insurance companies require the instructor to follow the standards of the agancy for which he teaches. Failure to do so can void the policy. If the insurance companies thaught we were all designing our own classes we would not have this protection. An instructor who violates the standards risks not having insurance coverage in the case of an accident. His decision to ignore standards can have a direct impact on your (the students) financial well being.
This guy may be the best instructor in the world but he does not have the right to decide what goes into a PADI class, Only PADI can do that.
We have standards and for that matter laws that should be changed. The way we change them is by actively participating and contributing in the precess. Other courses of action have penalties.
I was not insinuating I had a desire to report anything. I, as well as others here, have no first hand knowlege. We know only what you told us.
But really who has been wronged? Who is the scumbag? Where I come from, commiting to do a thing that one has no intention of doing puts one well on their way.
Based on all the principals I am aware of there is little room to argue. A single line in the standards may seem to be of little importance but the fact that we have standards and follow them is EXTREMELY important.
What GUE requirements might this guy choose to leave out of a GUE cave 2 class because he decides it is silly. The trend and it's implication is not very good.
There are changes I would like to see in the standards. I for one, do not trust this guy to make them on his own without any process or checks or VALIDATION.
I give him a pat on the back for teaching trim. I think every recreational agency on the face of the planet would agree that he is dead wrong in ommitting a skill that is required by most if not all (recreational) agencies.
In tech diving we don't use snorkels. In recreational diving they are used often by those who know how.
OP
Lost Yooper
Guest
I can't wait until GUE gets in the game so we don't have address this kind of junk. My wife is done, so I don't care. Ya'll teach anyway you want. If you're able to look yourself in the mirror after a class then so much the better, I guess.
Good luck.
Mike
Good luck.
Mike
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