My first brush with scuba

[TMHeimer]

Oly,

Any shop that advertises a weekend course should be prepared for the students that won't "get it" in that time frame...it's just not enough time. If remedial instruction is needed after such a chopped down course, they should be providing a reasonable amount free of charge.

The student pays to learn to safely scuba dive.
The shop gets paid to provide a course that allows the student to learn to safely scuba dive.
If the shop chooses to run a course that barely meets standards, they also choose to subject themselves to giving remedial training to those who need more than a bare minimum course.

Weekend courses are ok for students that have been around diving since they were a sperm, yet not ever certified. They suck for the average non water baby.

I have nowhere near the experience of you guys, but my 2 cents-- I only have DMd weekend OW courses. Have found that maybe 2/3 of students get it all OK (being "water" people), while the other 1/3 struggle at least some-- due to the time constraints and perhaps even more due to so many skills happening within 2 days. But the course is what it is. I tend to agree with Oly in that if a student needs more that a little extra time there should be a charge. It's a long day for the instructors, and most of them (here at least) have just worked a 5 day week at their "real" jobs. They should be compensated. I can only imagine what the standard 30 hour (or whatever) course of 1970 might cost today.

 

[oly5050user]

Oly,
Any shop that advertises a weekend course should be prepared for the students that won't "get it" in that time frame...it's just not enough time. If remedial instruction is needed after such a chopped down course, they should be providing a reasonable amount free of charge.

The student pays to learn to safely scuba dive.
The shop gets paid to provide a course that allows the student to learn to safely scuba dive.
If the shop chooses to run a course that barely meets standards, they also choose to subject themselves to giving remedial training to those who need more than a bare minimum course.

Weekend courses are ok for students that have been around diving since they were a sperm, yet not ever certified. They suck for the average non water baby.

sorry Tom, but got to disagree..the student in this case cannot swim. scuba instructors are there to teach scuba, not swimming. The swim she could not do is the same as that is asked by summer day camps of 10 year old kids here in NY to see if the kid can be allowed to go in the deep end of a pool.
She came in unprepared. I can understand giving a bit of help to assist a student to suceed, but where is the line drawn? I actually find a weekend course consisting of academics and pool skills ran on a Friday 7pm to 11pm,Saturday and Sunday 9am to 4pm schedule works out fine for 90% + of our customers. Of those hours about 10 to 12 are in the pool ..
In a private setting one to one I have this past week ran 2 ow classes of about 8 hrs each.Per students requests need to be done in ONE DAY . Student in pool total of 7 hrs,with breaks ..Students came in prepared with PADI elearning completed, both did 100% on review , both comfortable in water. I run about 1 or 2 private students a week and every other weekend have a group ow class of 4 to 6. The student paid for a scuba course, not certification card. Its up to the student to be prepared so they can be successful.

 

[tomfcrist]

I have nowhere near the experience of you guys, but my 2 cents-- I only have DMd weekend OW courses. Have found that maybe 2/3 of students get it all OK (being "water" people), while the other 1/3 struggle at least some-- due to the time constraints and perhaps even more due to so many skills happening within 2 days. But the course is what it is. I tend to agree with Oly in that if a student needs more that a little extra time there should be a charge. It's a long day for the instructors, and most of them (here at least) have just worked a 5 day week at their "real" jobs. They should be compensated. I can only imagine what the standard 30 hour (or whatever) course of 1970 might cost today.

Oly, this reply applies to our conversation as well.

TMH,
You hit the nail on the head inadvertently. Money. Why is it that the $199 scuba course even exists? Quite frankly, the $400 scuba course shouldn't exist.

When you refuse to raise your prices and charge what your time is worth to begin with, you end up feeling a need to charge extra for time spent with a student that isn't getting it at the same rate as others. These are the same folks that charge one price ( usually a small one) for the course, only to blast the student with another $300+ dollars in rental fees, site entry fees and c card fees.

The OP didn't say she couldn't swim. She can't swim well. This is something that can be coached. Does she need to be an Olympian? No, she needs to not drown. 10 minutes of my time.

When scuba instructors start valuing themselves as EDUCATORS instead of lowly instructors just working to support a habit, these issues go away.

But hey, go ahead and leach some more money out of your students while supplying a puss poor experience....they will come to folks like Jim or myself, get personal attention and believe it or not end up paying us more up front than they did you when you were nickel and diming them.
Disclaimer " none of this was aimed at either of you directly, more so at the ****ty buisiness model that 95% of the industry seems to have these days."

 

[TMHeimer]

Oly, this reply applies to our conversation as well.

TMH,
You hit the nail on the head inadvertently. Money. Why is it that the $199 scuba course even exists? Quite frankly, the $400 scuba course shouldn't exist.

When you refuse to raise your prices and charge what your time is worth to begin with, you end up feeling a need to charge extra for time spent with a student that isn't getting it at the same rate as others. These are the same folks that charge one price ( usually a small one) for the course, only to blast the student with another $300+ dollars in rental fees, site entry fees and c card fees.

The OP didn't say she couldn't swim. She can't swim well. This is something that can be coached. Does she need to be an Olympian? No, she needs to not drown. 10 minutes of my time.

When scuba instructors start valuing themselves as EDUCATORS instead of lowly instructors just working to support a habit, these issues go away.

But hey, go ahead and leach some more money out of your students while supplying a puss poor experience....they will come to folks like Jim or myself, get personal attention and believe it or not end up paying us more up front than they did you when you were nickel and diming them.
Disclaimer " none of this was aimed at either of you directly, more so at the ****ty buisiness model that 95% of the industry seems to have these days."[/QUOTE


********************************************



Well, I don't disagree with what you say here. There have been many discussions about what instructors/shops should charge for a course and all the related things that pop up--like what competitors charge, how much an owner can afford to pay an instructor, the general financial problems facing dive shops, etc.
As well as DMs working without ANY pay and instructors being paid way too little....It's all been said.

Couple of points though:
--Our shop doesn't
do any of that other stuff you mention--rental, site, c card fees. If a student is in need of a lot more pool time on skills they usually join a future class (though I admit I don't really know the financial aspect of that and how instructors of each course split that student's overall fee).
--I believe our shop charges about $300 for the course, maybe more for e learning. This is not something the instructors control. Then you get into the question of if you charge a lot more will enough sign up? But I do think most if not all of our instructors consider themselves educators as opposed to teaching to support their hobby. As stated, most have full time jobs and probably can afford personal diving without the instructor pay they get.
--Re charging for (serious) extra time--I know many school teachers do a lot of after hours helping of students, coaching, you name it, all without pay. But teachers' salaries now aren't those of 1966, nor those of today's dive instructors. Having said that, it is IMO fairly unusual for one to get free help beyond the time you pay for. Examples: Private music lessons-pay for an hour a week, get an hour. College course--register, pay tuition, go to class when it happens (big problems? maybe you just fail?). Take your EFR CPR renewal--goes from 9 to 5 or whatever. I'm sure there are quite a few more examples of this and other situations where extra "free' help is included or implied. The weekend OW course is a tight one--as I said, it is what it is and you get what you pay for. A little extra help from the instructor sure, if help by the DM didn't solve things. I, like many, am not a big fan of this course (glad I took the weekly spread-out OW course myself), except that it is the only one that is financially viable for me to DM due to my distance away.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Unfortunately it isn't just Scuba that has this problem. The drive to get the most bang for your buck and the time poor society drive this IMHO. When prices get driven down something has to give. People too often forget that at some point there is a crossover between quality and cost! People just getting into a new hobby who don't know what to expect have even less chance of recognizing that crossover point!

I see it all the time at work. People come into all levels of my first aid classes with no idea and no prep time. The boss registers them into the shortest course possible for the lowest price possible. All they care about is having the Certificate that says they meet the minimum standard. They don't care that the person they send told them they faint when they see blood! They don't care that the person they sent can barely speak never mind understand the language of instruction.

They do care if the class goes overtime due to these issues so their employee puts in for overtime. They do care when their employee tells them I picked on them because I gave up my lunch and break time to work on bringing them up to a passable level. They get REALLY cranky if I fail them because every trick in the book can't make them competent in the time frames allocated when I have a full class who is getting ticked off because I am spending too much time on something they found easy.

Too few people really care about the training and competency levels until the competency is needed to save a life. THEN they see the value:doh:

I don't think it is unreasonable for the instructor to get a bit more pay when a lot more effort is needed to get people up to speed. I do think it is unreasonable for the instructor to expect to get paid more when only reasonable additional effort is require. If a person is not ready for the fast tracked course it is not the instructor's fault. When the student doesn't know the course is fast tracked so they can't make an informed choice that is not fair either.

The way I read this.. I don't think the Op is being unreasonable. We all know that there is a lot of stress in learning scuba and the self doubt makes it harder.. edges towards panic. We all know that the difficulty we had equalizing in the beginning usually just melts away to something we do without thinking with some bottom hours. Seems to me the OP just needs to relax and perhaps find a way to take things at the right pace for them. It is impossible to relax when one feels rushed and overwhelmed with learning so many skills in a foreign environment.

 

[oly5050user]

ia

Oly, this reply applies to our conversation as well.

TMH,
You hit the nail on the head inadvertently. Money. Why is it that the $199 scuba course even exists? Quite frankly, the $400 scuba course shouldn't exist.
When you refuse to raise your prices and charge what your time is worth to begin with, you end up feeling a need to charge extra for time spent with a student that isn't getting it at the same rate as others. These are the same folks that charge one price ( usually a small one) for the course, only to blast the student with another $300+ dollars in rental fees, site entry fees and c card fees.

Why does the $199 course exist? Maybe because of the mentality of some insructors that they "love to teach" That usually does not last too long as they go out of business. BUT to survive and have a business the price to charge must meet and exceed expenses and some how be at a price that the market will bear. An instructor can be the best there is but if the price is too high he will not have any students. We currently charge close to what in this area what "the market will bear",,Student required to either own a PADI crewpack and DvD (total cost of about $110 ) in addition of tuition of $269 for a standard group course.
Student also required to own personal set of gear of scuba quality mask/snkl/fins/boots.
Many of our students fly to get certification dives done. If dives done locally there is additional fee of $239 which includes rentals..So when someone walks in and wants to know total expense after ll said and done we quote about $850.
Private schedule course tuition is $650 for standard text/classroom presentations, $550 if elearner.
All other expenses apply.

The OP didn't say she couldn't swim. She can't swim well. This is something that can be coached. Does she need to be an Olympian? No, she needs to not drown. 10 minutes of my time.

The OP said she was asked to swim 10 laps..after 1 lap she could not continue..that in my eyes is a non swimmer..she could not do other option of 300 yd mask/snkl/fins either..she is clearly not comfortable in the water and should be remediated by a swim coach not the scuba instructor.

When scuba instructors start valuing themselves as EDUCATORS instead of lowly instructors just working to support a habit, these issues go away.
But hey, go ahead and leach some more money out of your students while supplying a puss poor experience....they will come to folks like Jim or myself, get personal attention and believe it or not end up paying us more up front than they did you when you were nickel and diming them.
Disclaimer " none of this was aimed at either of you directly, more so at the ****ty buisiness model that 95% of the industry seems to have these days."

Some do view themselves as professionals, as they should. But if student cannot be prepared,who is at fault? The student obviously..As to nickel and diming them I think that when all requirements are explained in a learning agreement it is not nickle an diming them. In fact by charging a tuition fee for academic and pool requirements alone is giving student a less expensive option for those that choose to complete certification dives elsewhere. I personally do very few certification dives locally, even though I teach on a constant basis weekly and even daily some weeks. I have the newer young instrs on staff do them..More than 60% 0f our student base are fairly affluent and fly to warm climates to complete the dives. When I do the certification dives it is usually on an island trip or if done locally on a requested private basis, and I charge appropriately for it. I highly agree with your statement about "the ****ty business model that 95% of the industry seems to have" We are on the same page here .

 

[tomfcrist]

Why does the $199 course exist? Maybe because of the mentality of some insructors that they "love to teach" That usually does not last too long as they go out of business. BUT to survive and have a business the price to charge must meet and exceed expenses and some how be at a price that the market will bear. An instructor can be the best there is but if the price is too high he will not have any students. We currently charge close to what in this area what "the market will bear",,Student required to either own a PADI crewpack and DvD (total cost of about $110 ) in addition of tuition of $269 for a standard group course.
Student also required to own personal set of gear of scuba quality mask/snkl/fins/boots.
Many of our students fly to get certification dives done. If dives done locally there is additional fee of $239 which includes rentals..So when someone walks in and wants to know total expense after ll said and done we quote about $850.
Private schedule course tuition is $650 for standard text/classroom presentations, $550 if elearner.
All other expenses apply.

Why not charge $900 for the course, but explain to the customer what they are getting? Give them their mask/fins/snorkel etc., give them the crew pak, give them everything for that price and if they decide to do a referral in warm water, that is on their own dime. The market will bear a lot more than most people think it will, and the consumer appreciates personal attention and honesty. The honesty part is where most shops fail.

The OP said she was asked to swim 10 laps..after 1 lap she could not continue..that in my eyes is a non swimmer..she could not do other option of 300 yd mask/snkl/fins either..she is clearly not comfortable in the water and should be remediated by a swim coach not the scuba instructor.

Ok, she cant swim very well....what are the standards? 10 laps in my neck of the woods is 500m....that seems a little excessive for an OW scuba course.

She also stated that she was uncomfortable with the snorkeling part, mainly due to the fact she had no idea what she was doing. I would be willing to bet that 5 minutes of attention could have solved that problem.

 

[oly5050user]

Why not charge $900 for the course, but explain to the customer what they are getting? Give them their mask/fins/snorkel etc., give them the crew pak, give them everything for that price and if they decide to do a referral in warm water, that is on their own dime. The market will bear a lot more than most people think it will, and the consumer appreciates personal attention and honesty. The honesty part is where most shops fail.

would really like to charge $900, but as I wrote more than 60% of our clients travel for ow dives. Not fair to charge them full price if dives are elsewhere. Charge such a price and customers would certainly go to low end course that other facility may offer. We charge what it costs with a proper margin built in. I honestly do not know what nearest facility charges. Nor do we care. We break ow course into phase 1 , 2, 3..academics, pool, ow dives...academics and pool is one price,tuition, and ow dives are additional fee.All stated clearly on learning agreement.

Ok, she cant t swim very well....what are the standards? 10 laps in my neck of the woods is 500m....that seems a little excessive for an OW scuba course.

swim 200 yards non stop tread for 10 minutes...she said she was asked to swim 10 laps...pool probably less than 25yds per lap..non swimmer.

She also stated that she was uncomfortable with the snorkeling part, mainly due to the fact she had no idea what she was doing. I would be willing to bet that 5 minutes of attention could have solved that problem.

Maybe could have, but still needs to do 300 yds now with mfs and still tread no swim aids 10 minutes, best if she gets in shape and learns to swim before a scuba class

 

[sandhay]

Maybe could have, but still needs to do 300 yds now with mfs and still tread no swim aids 10 minutes, best if she gets in shape and learns to swim before a scuba class

First, I'm a guy, not a girl

Second, I passed the 10 minute tread by treading water (not floating) for 10 minutes. It was tough, but I got through that part. Regarding the swim with mfs, after about the third time of slowly dragging the snorkel underwater and taking a breath of water I was done.

And last, the gear I purchased I purchased directly from the dive shop giving me the lesson. They did not have a wetsuit in their "rental section" there that fit me properly. They had 3 types of booties: hard sole, soft sole 1(thicker), soft sole 2. None of those fit quite right, and I'm unclear if they can order a pair from somewhere else for me to try. That said, they were definitely willing to work with me on finding the right fit -- exchanging anything that didn't fit as long as it hasn't been in the ocean and they carried it.

I feel the pricing is appropriate or too cheap. if a student wants to attend another pool section of the same class it's free (provided there's space), a private 1:1 lesson with an instructor for a person who has taken the OW cert course is an extra fee ($100). I'm not exactly sure how much the instructor is getting paid, because $100 seems like an exceptionally low hourly rate (they said the 1:1 lesson would be 3-4 hours, depending). If I were to do consulting work the going rate is at least $150-200/hour. Different business, I know, but even snowboarding lessons are ~$150-300 for a day(~6 hours) long group lesson.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

First, I'm a guy, not a girl

Second, I passed the 10 minute tread by treading water (not floating) for 10 minutes. It was tough, but I got through that part. Regarding the swim with mfs, after about the third time of slowly dragging the snorkel underwater and taking a breath of water I was done.

And last, the gear I purchased I purchased directly from the dive shop giving me the lesson. They did not have a wetsuit in their "rental section" there that fit me properly. They had 3 types of booties: hard sole, soft sole 1(thicker), soft sole 2. None of those fit quite right, and I'm unclear if they can order a pair from somewhere else for me to try. That said, they were definitely willing to work with me on finding the right fit -- exchanging anything that didn't fit as long as it hasn't been in the ocean and they carried it.

I feel the pricing is appropriate or too cheap. if a student wants to attend another pool section of the same class it's free (provided there's space), a private 1:1 lesson with an instructor for a person who has taken the OW cert course is an extra fee ($100). I'm not exactly sure how much the instructor is getting paid, because $100 seems like an exceptionally low hourly rate (they said the 1:1 lesson would be 3-4 hours, depending). If I were to do consulting work the going rate is at least $150-200/hour. Different business, I know, but even snowboarding lessons are ~$150-300 for a day(~6 hours) long group lesson.

I am a bit unclear here. Do you think the swim problem was a pacing issue or a physical issue? I read it as a pacing issue Have you tried going to a pool and just swimming lengths as slow as you can to see how you go? Have you tried other strokes? I know I have never mastered the Freestyle couldn't go a full lap but I can go forever on the sidestroke and backstroke/breastroke. Honestly with my back inflate most of my surface swimming on scuba is nice leisurely on my back chatting with my dive buddies