More experience = Less weight

[AZ-DivePro]

A thing or two you may want to consider... While you need weight to overcome the buoyancy of your wetsuit at the surface and you want enough weight to do your safety stop at the end of the dive. After a few minutes at depth your wetsuit compresses and will stay that way at 15' for your safety stop. Your tank although nearly empty at the end of your dive should still contain 500psi and will not reach it's completely empty buoyancy. To sum it up you just don't need as much weight after the innitial crush of your wetsuit particularly a thick one. At the end of the dive before you get near the shallow safety stop zone you should make sure to empty the extra air from your BCD.

Another of the tricks of using less weight is to shift the weight to your tank by using a steel tank that stays negatively buoyant when empty. I'm one of the zero dumpable weight divers that uses a LP108 on my 1 lb AL backplate while wearing a full 7mm merino lined wetsuit.

 

[Bob DBF]

With 7 mil farmer john wetsuit, AL80 tank, I used 41 pounds as a newbie-includes the 5 lbs. added at start to compensate for when tank gets lighter. A few months later I took AOW and for the P.P. Buoyancy dive my instructor said I was way overweighted. I disagreed. Did a weight check and he was amazed (as was I, actually) to find I was right. Later I completed the PP Buoyancy course. Presently (6 yrs. after these classes) I still use 41 pounds. I can hover horizontally forever at will. I guess I'm an exception to the "less weight as you get experience"?

Which proves that if you take the time to do a proper weight check to begin with, you will have the proper weight. The reason people continually remove weight, assuming no kit changes, is that they started and continued to use the weight needed to hold them kneeling stationary on the bottom and other bad habits, and it takes time to change habits.

My check is on the way back from a shore dive is to hover at 15' just above the bottom, empty my BC, breathe the tank down to 500#, and remove weights and set them on the bottom untill I am neutral. I usually dive with a couple of pounds heavy in case I have less than 500 in the tank and weights, especially old ones, are not accurate, usually under.

dumpsterDiver and ScoobaChef covered the insanity of following the platitudes. As they say, weight, SAC, and the way you dive can turn into a big p***ing contest and I see no need for standing in that rain. I just dive for fun, sightsee, take some pics, grab a few critters for dinner, and am very glad I can still dive after all these years.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[ScoobaChef]

Which proves that if you take the time to do a proper weight check to begin with, you will have the proper weight. The reason people continually remove weight, assuming no kit changes, is that they started and continued to use the weight needed to hold them kneeling stationary on the bottom and other bad habits, and it takes time to change habits.

My check is on the way back from a shore dive is to hover at 15' just above the bottom, empty my BC, breathe the tank down to 500#, and remove weights and set them on the bottom untill I am neutral. I usually dive with a couple of pounds heavy in case I have less than 500 in the tank and weights, especially old ones, are not accurate, usually under.

dumpsterDiver and ScoobaChef covered the insanity of following the platitudes. As they say, weight, SAC, and the way you dive can turn into a big p***ing contest and I see no need for standing in that rain. I just dive for fun, sightsee, take some pics, grab a few critters for dinner, and am very glad I can still dive after all these years.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

Bob,

you are so right about not getting into a p***ing contest with other divers. I just love the nuts and bolt of diving nearly as much as I love being in the water. Finding a 3 meter wobbegong on a dive is just as important and exciting to me as being able to hover motionlessly to watch said wobbegong.

As I'm sure you and most everyone else on this board knows, there is a lot of advice out there, some brilliant, some not so great and some downright dangerous. I think it's very important that new divers take the time to ask questions and not blindly accept advice as gospel truth without having an understanding of the reasoning behind that advice.

Imagine this conversation: (no disrespect intended to any instructors)

Instructor: As you continue to dive, you will find you need less weight and have an easier time controlling your buoyancy.

Diver: Why will I start to need less weight?

Instructor: Because we overloaded you with weight to keep you on the bottom for skills practice. You don't really need nearly that much.

Diver: -starts removing weights and plans on a buoyancy check on the next dive-

 

[Superlyte27]

Thanks everyone, some good info so far.

fnfalman - exact same equipment, same fill pressure, same conditions. (I prefer the FiveSeven btw

Haha, that's funny.
Just bought a Noveske in .300 Blk Out with Suppressor.

 

[Rogersea]

I also believe that new divers continue to shed weight/lead because often times they did not really achieve N/Bouyancy during OW. I recommend dedicating an entire dive or two to messing around with proper weighting... It makes the rest of your dives so much more enjoyable...

During my OW courses I dedicate about 10 minutes per dive to establishing and maintaining N/B U/W.. I think it pays big dividends in the long run...


Good Luck and I hope you continue to enjoy diving...

Cheers,
Roger

 

[phoenix31tt]

I also believe that new divers continue to shed weight/lead because often times they did not really achieve N/Bouyancy during OW. I recommend dedicating an entire dive or two to messing around with proper weighting... It makes the rest of your dives so much more enjoyable...

During my OW courses I dedicate about 10 minutes per dive to establishing and maintaining N/B U/W.. I think it pays big dividends in the long run...

and i think thats just it right there... its not that you magically require less weight.. its that you've had more time in the water experimenting with your weighting and determining what weight is right for you....

for my classes our instructor constantly monitored our trim, ability to stay neutral etc every dive and would advise on changes needed to be made... this personally continues for me after classes as i start to acquire my own gear and change configurations... its not more experience = less weight.. its more like more experience = proper weight

 

[Scuba Lawrence]

I've loved this thread! I keep thinking I need to shed some lead, but I wind up trudging back up the beach to put the two pounds back in because I couldn't fin down. I think the time will come when I can lighten up, but we shouldn't force it just because the veteran diver has his weight down to ten grams and surfaces after an hour with 2000 pounds left in his AL80. That's not me. I know I can get lighter under water, but getting heavier is tough.

My sixth dive was on a boat in Grand Cayman. All of my previous dives had been in Monterey (thick wetsuit and lots of lead). This was my first tshirt dive. When the DM came around handing out belts, I said I needed sixteen, as that seemed logical based on what I'd just learned in class. He said, "Oh no, that's way too much! Try 12...here!" I got down okay, with some kicking, and at 500 began my controlled ascent. At about twenty feet (from about 45 total) I had dumped all of my BC air and was kicking down for all I was worth, until my legs were kicking in the air! The change in tank buoyancy was more than my dozen pounds could handle.

It's a little amazing: x-pounds is perfect, x-2 is dangerous.

 

[Bob DBF]

I also believe that new divers continue to shed weight/lead because often times they did not really achieve N/Bouyancy during OW. I recommend dedicating an entire dive or two to messing around with proper weighting... It makes the rest of your dives so much more enjoyable...

During my OW courses I dedicate about 10 minutes per dive to establishing and maintaining N/B U/W.. I think it pays big dividends in the long run...


Good Luck and I hope you continue to enjoy diving...

Cheers,
Roger

Not picking in you in particular, although it looks that way, if I were a new diver reading this I would think that if I maintained neutral buoyancy I would be properly weighted. Since writing and doing are two different things, I assume your students are properly weighted, however the students understanding might be confused.

I believe that one problem is that new divers do not understand that neutral buoyancy and proper weighting are not the same thing, although you will need to be neutrally buoyant to achieve proper weighting. One may be neutrally buoyant and significantly overweighed. In OW class divers are taught how to maintain neutral buoyancy, was it the same as proper weighting no diver would be overweighed after instruction.

Neutral buoyancy is a condition in which a physical body's density, diver and kit, is equal to the density of the fluid, water, in which it is immersed. This offsets the force of gravity that would otherwise cause the object to sink. An object that has neutral buoyancy will neither sink nor rise. I could be salvaging a 10# anchor and if I hold the safety stop three minutes with the anchor in my hand I would be neutrally buoyant at that time.

Proper weighting is a construct whereby you maintain neutral buoyancy, in your normal kit, at 15', 500# in the tank, no air in the BC and breathing normally, by adjusting your weight. When you can hold a hover under these conditions without changing your weight, the proper weight has been found.

There are numerous reasons, such as a different tank, diving very shallow or breathing a tank below 500#, to add a few pounds, but at that point you have a benchmark to adjust your weight from, and yours should be the best judgment of what adjustments are needed.

The problem to avoid is under weighting which will not rear it's ugly head until the end of the dive when you will float to the surface rather than holding your stop. Although this is not optimal in NDL diving, it is not earth shattering and should you feel light early you can use the time honored tradition of grabbing a few rocks or an overweighted diver.



Bob
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I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[ScoobaChef]

Proper weighting is a construct whereby you maintain neutral buoyancy, in your normal kit, at 15', 500# in the tank, no air in the BC and breathing normally, by adjusting your weight. When you can hold a hover under these conditions without changing your weight, the proper weight has been found.

Bob,

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this statement on why I am a bit confused. I was pretty careful to select the correct weighting for my equipment since the very first pool session to achieve the neutral buoyance scenario you describe. 6# with a 3mm in fresh water, 12# in salt water with a 5mm and 15# in salt water with a 7mm. When I tested out his advice and removed a single 3# block from my weight, I was unable to even do a headfirst descent with a full tank, empty bc, etc. Yet he still is quite insistent that I don't need all that weight.

I fully understand that experience will give me better control in the water, but I have no idea how experience can help when I'm too buoyant to even swim down in the first place.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

All kidding aside.. the whole idea of a fanatical attention to ballast is ridiculous! We have BC's and it is fine to carry 2-3-4 lbs more lead than the absolute minimum. Having a couple lbs of extra ballast allows us to hang onto something on the bottom and hide in the current, it allows us to hold down an SMB while on a hang (while low on air), and might be useful if we intend to dive very shallow like 10 feet or something and it allows us to start a descent a tiny bit easier. It could also be important if we are 3 feet from the surface and boat comes in with a prop turning.... it will be much better to be able to sink than to float up from a depth of 3-4 feet.

A couple of extra lbs is NOT going to make a bit of difference to a good diver.

It is always better to be a few lbs too heavy than a few lbs too light.

Divers wearing thick wetsuits in cold water are going to undergo pretty radical swings in buoyancy when making significant changes in depth...a few lbs to these folks is going to be zero hindrance to good diving. If you are diving in warm water with zero compressible wetsuit, you may be able to dive with close to zero air in the BC and if your weight is fine tuned, you might hardly have to touch the BC during the dive. A few extra lbs for these people may be more noticable.. but again. it is not a competition and good divers don't care about this stuff.

Being grossly over weight makes it much harder to dive and many divers are taught to dive with way too much lead... but this whole discussion reminds me of two anorexics arguing over having either one or two carrots in their salad.