Mk20 Recall - Subsequent related failure

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

R

redacted

Guest
This was posted on TDS: http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=318094#post318094

This appears to be a Mk25 which uses the same body and upgraded yoke or din connector as the "repaired" Mk20s that were fixed under the recent recall. Looks just like the failures that precipitated the Mk20 recall. Perhaps those claiming design defect of the body are correct!!! I may have to think about replacing my "repaired" Mk20s untill this works itself out. The only saving grace is, AFAIK, none of the failures have been during a dive. But I don't think I'd be running Mk20/25s on stage bottles.
 
awap:
But I don't think I'd be running Mk20/25s on stage bottles.

The WKPP seems pretty happy with their Scubapro piston first stages on their stage/deco bottles and RB80s - been using them for years.
 
Vie:
The WKPP seems pretty happy with their Scubapro piston first stages on their stage/deco bottles and RB80s - been using them for years.

Yep. A lot of folks put a lot of miles on their Ford Explorers with Firestone tires too. I point out the stage bottle usage because I believe the failure tends to occur when you first open the tank valve. Of course, the failure of a single stage/deco bottle should never leave the team with insufficient gas to safely complete the dive. They also may not be concerened with the problem of reg techs overtorqueing the connection. I suspect that the overtorqueing may also be occuring during gear handling. I've seen boat hands use an LP hose to lift a rig out of the water and into a boat. I'll bet that has the potential of putting some serious torque on that connection.

The frequency of occurance is obviously extremely low and, so far the results d not appear to have resulted in any serious injuries. But the potential is there and may not have been corrected by the recall.
 
I don't want to sign up for TDS just to read the post you linked, and a quick google search didn't return any MK25 failures. How many instances have there been?
 
O2BBubbleFree:
I don't want to sign up for TDS just to read the post you linked, and a quick google search didn't return any MK25 failures. How many instances have there been?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the link would only work for members. It is only one incident but it is with a Mk25 and looks just like the failure that produced the Mk20 recall and the change to the Mk25 connector.
 
The incident would not be caused by over torquing if in fact it had the new universal retainer. Also, the same basic first stage body design has been in use for decades on the Mk 5, Mk 10 and Mk 15 as well as the Mk 20 and Mk 25 - not to mention all of the MK 5 clones sold by several companies.

If you read the deco stop link, the speculation is that the tank was possibly dropped and/or fell with the reg attached. Obviously it is impossible to totally idiot proof any reg and to prevent all damage from gross negligence or abuse by the end user. So let's not go running around screaming the "sky is falling!"...the sky is falling!" with everyone deciding they need to sell their MK 25's.

The fact remains that no Mk 25 has failed in use. Period.
 
DA Aquamaster:
The incident would not be caused by over torquing if in fact it had the new universal retainer. Also, the same basic first stage body design has been in use for decades on the Mk 5, Mk 10 and Mk 15 as well as the Mk 20 and Mk 25 - not to mention all of the MK 5 clones sold by several companies.

If you read the deco stop link, the speculation is that the tank was possibly dropped and/or fell with the reg attached. Obviously it is impossible to totally idiot proof any reg and to prevent all damage from gross negligence or abuse by the end user. So let's not go running around screaming the "sky is falling!"...the sky is falling!" with everyone deciding they need to sell their MK 25's.

The fact remains that no Mk 25 has failed in use. Period.

I wish I were as comfortable with SP as you seem to be. The speculation that it may have involved a dropped tank was pure speculation. There was no evidence of such an incident. I guess I never was fully comfortable with the explanation of overtorqueing by repair techs with the Mk20. I'm still doubtful because the body is failing with that longitudinal crack rather than the threads on the connection. And it seems to be a problem only with the Mk20/25 and not with the older BPs of similar design (different thicknesses and different manufacturing processes??)

I drove my explorer with Firestone tires and I'll continue to dive my SP BPs. But I'm hoping the CPSC takes another hard look at what is going on here. I do not trust a manufacturer to put the consumers well being ahead of his profits - especially once it is off the drawing board and in production.
 
DA Aquamaster:
...with everyone deciding they need to sell their MK 25's.

Should this happen, I'd be willing to help some of you get rid of those pesky things for a small nominal fee. :)

I could use one or two more.
 
awap:
I wish I were as comfortable with SP as you seem to be. The speculation that it may have involved a dropped tank was pure speculation. There was no evidence of such an incident. I guess I never was fully comfortable with the explanation of overtorqueing by repair techs with the Mk20. I'm still doubtful because the body is failing with that longitudinal crack rather than the threads on the connection. And it seems to be a problem only with the Mk20/25 and not with the older BPs of similar design (different thicknesses and different manufacturing processes??)

I drove my explorer with Firestone tires and I'll continue to dive my SP BPs. But I'm hoping the CPSC takes another hard look at what is going on here. I do not trust a manufacturer to put the consumers well being ahead of his profits - especially once it is off the drawing board and in production.
Well on the one hand they - the people with the reg itself who are most familiar with the situation - are speculating that it was dropped instead of speculating that it is due to a materials flaw - as are those who really know nothing about it. Maybe it's just me but one category of speculation seems to be more reliable and more responsible than the other.

The Mk 20/25 design has been around for well over a decade and tons of them have been produced. Out of that there have been very few failures from any causes and none have failed in the water. The fact is that due to the nature of the internet, every failure will be brought to the public's attention regardless of the cause.

SP tends to take a lot of heat for regulator design "flaws" when in truth their committment to long term parts support and service ensures their regulators stay in service when many other brands would have long since been consigned to paperweight status. In addition, many SP regs are used in extreme diving situations not seen by many other brands. Despite rumors, etc, they remain popular with the technical diving crowd - a very particular bunch over all who use their gear hard on a regular basis in demanding conditions.

If there is a flaw in the design, it would be the nature of the basic layout where a greater amount of leverage can be exterted against the yoke retainer and the body of the reg where the yoke retainer is anchored. Ie: lettign the tank fall forward off a bench while gearing up is going to result in the unit impacting on the regulator itself. All that energy has to go somewhere and not all of it goes into the boat deck. Is SP at fault for failing to design a reg that a moronic diver can safely drop on it's head? Apparently.

I don't think there is a flaw in the materials, manufactuer or design of the body itself as brass is a well nown material with 50 plus years of use in scuba regulators. The Mk 20/25 has lightening cuts in the body, but they are on the opposite side of the regulator. The differences between the Mk 20/25 and the earlier Mk 5, Mk 10 and Mk 15 are not in that area of the body. In my opinon, that type of failure is then by default the most likely the result of how the particular regulator has been used and/or serviced.

And I have to say in the 20 plus years I have been diving, the average entry level diver, to state it nicely, appears to be somewhat less committed to proper care and treatment of high pressure tanks and regulators that they were 2 or 3 decades ago.

The fact remains a diver is responsible for the proper maintainence and pre-dive inspection of his or her gear and a quick visual inspection for an incipient crack, a leak check on the surface and a bubble check just after submerging would catch 99.99% of any similar cracks -what ever the cause. Consequently, I have no problem diving with a Mk 20 or Mk 25 (let alone 50 plus year old vintage equipment) because I take reasonable care of my eqipment and I do a proper pre-dive inspection prior to each dive. So in effect, the control of the situation lies with me.
 
DA Aquamaster:
Well on the one hand they - the people with the reg itself who are most familiar with the situation - are speculating that it was dropped instead of speculating that it is due to a materials flaw - as are those who really know nothing about it. Maybe it's just me but one category of speculation seems to be more reliable and more responsible than the other.

The Mk 20/25 design has been around for well over a decade and tons of them have been produced. Out of that there have been very few failures from any causes and none have failed in the water. The fact is that due to the nature of the internet, every failure will be brought to the public's attention regardless of the cause.

SP tends to take a lot of heat for regulator design "flaws" when in truth their committment to long term parts support and service ensures their regulators stay in service when many other brands would have long since been consigned to paperweight status. In addition, many SP regs are used in extreme diving situations not seen by many other brands. Despite rumors, etc, they remain popular with the technical diving crowd - a very particular bunch over all who use their gear hard on a regular basis in demanding conditions.

If there is a flaw in the design, it would be the nature of the basic layout where a greater amount of leverage can be exterted against the yoke retainer and the body of the reg where the yoke retainer is anchored. Ie: lettign the tank fall forward off a bench while gearing up is going to result in the unit impacting on the regulator itself. All that energy has to go somewhere and not all of it goes into the boat deck. Is SP at fault for failing to design a reg that a moronic diver can safely drop on it's head? Apparently.

I don't think there is a flaw in the materials, manufactuer or design of the body itself as brass is a well nown material with 50 plus years of use in scuba regulators. The Mk 20/25 has lightening cuts in the body, but they are on the opposite side of the regulator. The differences between the Mk 20/25 and the earlier Mk 5, Mk 10 and Mk 15 are not in that area of the body. In my opinon, that type of failure is then by default the most likely the result of how the particular regulator has been used and/or serviced.

And I have to say in the 20 plus years I have been diving, the average entry level diver, to state it nicely, appears to be somewhat less committed to proper care and treatment of high pressure tanks and regulators that they were 2 or 3 decades ago.

The fact remains a diver is responsible for the proper maintainence and pre-dive inspection of his or her gear and a quick visual inspection for an incipient crack, a leak check on the surface and a bubble check just after submerging would catch 99.99% of any similar cracks -what ever the cause. Consequently, I have no problem diving with a Mk 20 or Mk 25 (let alone 50 plus year old vintage equipment) because I take reasonable care of my eqipment and I do a proper pre-dive inspection prior to each dive. So in effect, the control of the situation lies with me.

The "people with the reg itself who are most familiar with the situation" according to the OP that it happened "spontaneously". Perhaps they are trying to cover up an accident. The OP appears to be related to the shop that serviced this reg subsequently hypothersized "Judging by the way it's cracked, I was wondering if maybe the reg was on a tank and fell over, landing on the hose connection or something. I've never seen a reg crack like this, and I wasnt there when it happened, so I'm not too sure."

What I see is a failure that looks just like the previous failures that resulted in a recall. I agree that users are responsible for care, handling, proper maintenance, and inspection. Unfortunately very few users will be able to remove the yoke nut or din connector to properly inspect for cracks. I'll be waiting on the expert analysis of this incident. I hope SP does not try to simply dismiss it.

In the mean time, I may have to move my Mk7 up to first string.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom