Mk17/g260 vs Xstream

[jwllorens]

I've been saving for my first set of regs for a bit now and I have narrowed it down to the following two choices. I have only listed the pros and cons that I see as being different between the two.

• Poseidon Xstream
  • Pros
    • Can buy two first stages and two second stages, new, with hoses, with a SPG, for USD$1100. (Wont use but one of the first stages for a while and will need a din->yoke converter, but will save several hundred long term when I start using doubles. This is the best deal in the long run for a doubles set up, by far.)
    • Best reports of extreme coldwater performance.
    • Low profile second stage.
    • Side exhaust allows for constant breathing resistance with any head attitude.
    • Ingenious first stage design which would practically eliminate seat wear.
    • Upstream second stage. (I have found no reports of second stage failing closed with upwards creep of IP, instead have read reports of small quantities of gas being "burped" out of the OPV in first stage which seems preferable to a free flowing second stage. Seems like an advantage to me, but may make DIR training difficult if pursued as upstream second stages are disliked in the DIR community. Another positive side effect of this design is the evacuation of dust and debris when the regulator system is pressurized)
  • Cons
    • Upstream second stage dumps air when tank turned on or nearly empty, making this regulator difficult or impossible to feather (one of the advantages of a sidemount configuration, lost when using these regs).
    • Excessive purge pressures and lack of any adjustment knobs make this regulator a poor choice for FFMs that allow installation of a regulator.
    • Poor first stage servicing could result in IP drop at low tank pressures before tank pressure falls below IP (results in free flow of all connected Xstream second stages and rapid loss of remaining gas. Potential problem when doing safety stops on shallow recreational dives when dives often end with ~500psi.)
    • No dive/predive venturi setting, and no breathing resistance knob necessitates proper tuning. (Have read reports of these regulators being "temperamental" in this regard.)
    • Funky lip on the second stage housing limits choices of mouthpiece and results in more expensive replacement of the mouthpiece.

• Scubapro Mk17/g260
  • Pros
    • Based on the g250v, which has been noted as a reliable and good breather, but with more metal.
    • Reversible for potential future use in a sidemount configuration.'
    • A good choice for use with any FFM that allows installation of your own regulator, owed to the adjustable nature of the second stage.
    • It looks cool.
  • Cons
    • Does not come in a package with hoses, gauges, and two first/second stages at an awesome price like the Poseidons do. Will cost me about $400 more than the Poseidons for a complete doubles set up, once hoses, gauges, and everything else is added up.

So basically, it looks like I can get Xstreams for cheaper, they are quality regs, with proper service they should last me a good long time. However, it seems that the Xstreams are don't really come into their own on shallow dives, and seem particularly suited for deep diving with back mounted doubles. The Scubapros are much more enticing and seem to be a better "all around" choice. I do like the side exhaust feature of the Poseidons and the price looks better, but the Scubapro just looks like it would work for whatever I do with it in the future while the Poseidons may not.

I am a novice recreational diver. All of my dives are currently in warm, tropical waters, with an occasional shallow dive in a quarry or lake from 60F to 50F (can't handle anything colder in my cheap 3mm wetsuit, but so far I like the cold water and would like to try more advanced stuff later on with the right gear). In the future I hope to pursue technical dive training, and as of right now I am most interested in deep wreck and ice diving. As such, the following is what I am looking for in a set of regulators:

1) Price. I want something reliable and I will pay for quality, but I am not looking to spend 3 grand out of pocket right this second. My understanding is that with proper research, money can be saved without skimping on reliability and quality. I am also looking down the road, I don't want to buy something that I will be forced to replace when and if I make it to tech diving. This means I want to avoid purchasing things like a console or cheap octopus and instead go for a brass and glass SPG (and a wristmount depth gauge and stopwatch until I get a bottom timer or two).

2) Reliability. I have read up on what people are saying about certain regulators and I have found that both of the above regulators seem very reliable.

3) Longetivity. I want something that will stay with me through both time and different types of diving. I would very much like to try different types of diving in the future, including back mount and sidemount doubles when I try technical dive training. The regulators should be good for cold water because I forsee myself doing either dives in cold locations, or locations where it will be cold at depth.


I have also checked out the Apeks XTX50/DS4 and it looks interesting, but for a single tank the DS4 looks like it would have wonky hose routing and the XTX50 does not have a removable faceplate which may pose a problem for DIR requirements. I also don't know if it is reversible like the Xstream or g260. Though I could get it through my LDS (which would be great because I'd love to support them) I don't think I would save any money going this route and these regs just don't seem to have the features that the other two have, despite being somewhat popular online and clearly reliable.

 

[PCoetzee]

Another thing that you should consider is the price to service and the availability of service kits and qualified technicians.

I have been diving on doubles with a set of Poseidon XTream Deep regs for more than 6 years and they are virtually indestructible and perform as well as most high end regulators. My challenge with them is that they are very expensive to service were I live and the local agent refuses to sell me the service kits even though I have been servicing my own regulators for quite some time now. Very annoying.

I have tested the XTX50 Apeks regulators and they are incredibly smooth and well made. Do not overlook them to hastily.

Do not worry too much about pre-packaged hoses and things. You can always get nice "brass-n-glass" pressure gauges and the correct hose lengths at a later stage.

 

[jwllorens]

Another thing that you should consider is the price to service and the availability of service kits and qualified technicians.

I have been diving on doubles with a set of Poseidon XTream Deep regs for more than 6 years and they are virtually indestructible and perform as well as most high end regulators. My challenge with them is that they are very expensive to service were I live and the local agent refuses to sell me the service kits even though I have been servicing my own regulators for quite some time now. Very annoying.

I have tested the XTX50 Apeks regulators and they are incredibly smooth and well made. Do not overlook them to hastily.

Do not worry too much about pre-packaged hoses and things. You can always get nice "brass-n-glass" pressure gauges and the correct hose lengths at a later stage.

Thanks for the reply!

I am enthralled with he idea of pre-packaged hoses and things due to the price tag associated with it. From Dive Gear Express, I can grab a doubles setup with the Poseidon Xstreams that seems pretty unbeatable. Even if I went for a long hose singles setup, I would be paying a fraction of what I would pay for any other "high end" regulator. Going for the doubles setup seems to be the way to go, however, since I basically get another first stage for something like $150. That is a pretty lewd deal because the Mk3 Xstream first stage is fairly pricey (and it should be, the schematics are unbelievably gorgeous. ingenious design). So for a couple hundred more up front, I get another first stage and save myself a couple hundred down the road.

I am not so worried about service costs for two reasons. First, I will be moving soon, and I have no idea where. Currently, Apeks is the only brand that my LDS will service. When I move, I could be near a Poseidon dealer, and I could (more likely) be near a Scubapro dealer. Or both. I have no idea. So at the moment I consider myself to be near no dealers, and will have to mail in my regs for service. Well, the second reason is simply that I plan to acquire any necessary training and service my own regulators at some point. I suppose it is the engineer in me, but I like to build things myself.

I will talk to my LDS about the Apex regs. So many people like them. I am not so worried about smooth breathing as I am about reliability and adaptability to varying conditions (coldwater, various tec setups including backmounted doubles, sidemount, ect.) Reliability is of course paramount, because having a regulator break underwater is pretty terrifying. I currently spend upwards of 4 hours a day with a worn-to-the-nub Tusa reg with some unknown second stage (all labels have worn off, and this guy is the culprit) in a pool, and when it starts acting up and spitting water into my mouth or asking for me to "suck harder" to get a breath, I still get a bit of adrenaline going despite the surface being a couple of arms lengths away and having had the same thing happen 10 times before. I don't want any of that with 100ft of water or the floorboards of a shipwreck above me.

Adaptability really is no different than worrying about cost, because if I buy regs that pigeonhole me into one type of diving, I will lose money replacing them with different regs in the future. As of now, I am nothing but putty, ready to be molded into the diver of my choosing. I don't yet know what I want to do, only that I want to do more, and I would love to bring my equipment that I spent my hard earned cash on with me rather than trying to sell it and losing more money that could be spent on more dives buying the equipment that I need for said dives.

 

[tbone1004]

with the Poseidons you can feather them, the OPV shuts when the IP falls back down, so it can be feathered no issue, but with the small amount of gas leaking from the OPV you are almost better off than trying to feather a freeflowing second stage anyway. Poseidons do breathe differently than other regs so keep that in mind as well. Regarding mouthpieces, you don't change them very often, every 5 years or so unless you lose it? Not worth discussing cost of the mouthpieces. Keep in mind for sidemount that the MK3 first stage and MK17 do not offer ideal hose routing, and IMHO they don't offer it for doubles either. 5 port turrets are much better for both of these applications *Why I use a turret first stage with my Poseidon second stages*

Poseidons you can learn to service yourself and parts are readily available, scubapro not so much. If you are going to dive sidemount, buy a sidemount set, you'll save money. DGX should be able to make a package with the Xstreams if you don't want the Jetstreams, which do have a dive/predive switch though no venturi or adjustment because they don't need them. The switch on the Jetstream lifts the diaphragm off of the needle-valve to prevent freeflows in high current, the Xstream has the diaphragm in the back so it is a non-issue.


Don't limit yourself to these brands, Hog D3 sets from Cave Adventurers will save you a lot of money and are fantastic regulators and are about half the cost of the sets you're talking about from DGX...

 

[PCoetzee]

Poseidons do breathe differently than other regs so keep that in mind as well.

Agree... There is a very slight double clutch sensation as you inhale. Not an issue at all...

They can be very unforgiving if you use them to inflate bags and SMBs and they can really scare your buddy if you donate them and they push down on the purge to hard.

I enjoy my Xtreams in air sharing scenarios as they do not have a top or bottom. You can simply turn them around.
The recipient can swim on either side of you without hose issues.
Also no issues swimming upside down in caves looking for entrances in the ceiling.

The DGX packages is very cool. And well priced.

I can send you pictures of my setup if you are interested...

 

[halocline]

I've been saving for my first set of regs for a bit now and I have narrowed it down to the following two choices.....
I am a novice recreational diver. All of my dives are currently in warm, tropical waters, with an occasional shallow dive in a quarry or lake from 60F to 50F (can't handle anything colder in my cheap 3mm wetsuit, but so far I like the cold water and would like to try more advanced stuff later on with the right gear). In the future I hope to pursue technical dive training, and as of right now I am most interested in deep wreck and ice diving.

I would buy one regulator for the diving you are doing now, unless you really enjoy dropping more than $1000 on something you don't need. Either of the regs you listed are fine for very extreme diving, as are almost all regulators made by the big leading manufacturers. Buying a sealed reg is probably worth it for you because you said you want to dive in cold water, but don't make it a priority. You'd need to buy a drysuit and that's a major expense. By the time you get into technical diving, you'll be spending so much money on other dive-related expenses that an extra regulator will be the least of it.

BTW, you mentioned the poseidon being a 'best deal for doubles' at $1100, and that's simply not true. You could get a pair of hogs or used regs for WAY less than that. My doubles set, that I use in caves, cost under $200; two sealed MK10s,($40 each) a D300,($50) and a balanced/adjustable that I paid $20 for. I service them myself, which does save money, but you have you get all regs serviced eventually, new or used.

It's your money, spend it as you want, but regulators by and large all work extremely well and there's ALOT of hype that drives the price up.

 

[tbone1004]

Compared to you, my cave backgas setup is expensive, I think it might have cost a total of $700.... but that includes a new Hog D1 doubles set *350 when I got it*, a Poseidon Jetstream doubles set *used for like $200 I think*, and a Piranha din first stage for O2 at like $60....

Get a drysuit first if you want to dive cold water, it trumps regs.

Cave Adventurers - HOG D3 w/ Zenith Sidemount Regulator Package - Marianna, Florida USA - Never Undersold!
For under $700 for a sidemount set, that will do everything the other two sets will do that you've mentioned and has a more versatile first stage design for hose routing, it's not a gamble any more, these regs are every bit as reliable as any other on the market

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

I tried, then bought, an Xtream set from DGS (their streamlined single tank set-up), and my apeks xtx 200 rig will be going up for sale. I find the breathing to be phenomenal. By the way, the breathing is phenomenal in shallow water as well, to address one of your concerns. I have made several multi-hour dives in 6 to 15' of water (shallow macro muck dives) and the breathing is wonderful. It is just as wonderful at 135' in a strong current. I don't do deeper dives now, but in my younger days I dove to 225' with similar servo-designed regs and the breathing was effortless. Also, I find the Xtream to be a very dry breather. Because of the servo-assist design, they do not need any adjustment dial, as they feed you air depending on how deeply you draw your breath, at any depth or position. The xtream is also designed with the purge facing rearward, so never any issue of free-flowing in a current. If you ever do have to share air, the "any position works" design takes one stress factor out of the situation.

As for reliability and longevity, the Xtream second stage is even more unique and simplified than the first. This type of design has almost no moving parts and nothing to wear out.

I can't tell you about diving in freezing water, but I had to drain two tanks, and as an experiment drained them using the regs, the Xtream for one and the Apeks for the other, pushing the purge buttons. As the first and second stages began to freeze, the Apeks began to freeflow but not the Xtream. So, I expect under the ice, you would be just fine.

In sum, there is no type of diving at which the Xtream will not excel.

The same however can be said of scubapro (my wife dives a Mk25/S600 rig). But, my breathing preference is for the servo design. it is, though, a different feel from the typical regulator design and if you can try before you buy I would recommend that. Also, I dove servo regs for almost 20 years and was well used to their breathing characteristics. I had my regs stolen in the mid 90s, and when I re-bought my own gear six years ago, I did not know any servo regs were still being made until I found out about Poseidon.

This leads to the only issue to point out, there are not that many Poseidon dealers compared to Scubapro dealers. Since I regularly have my regs serviced, this is not so much a concern for me, but If I were to take a two week trip to a remote area, where no one would know how to repair a Poseidon if it broke, I might take a spare second stage. However, given the quality I see in this reg, that is pretty far down my list of concerns.

As for reliability, Poseidon is used by military forces and has a reputation for bulletproof reliability. Scubapro has been a reg of choice in the tech community for years, so the same. As for longevity, either reg is top line stuff and, with proper care, will last you for life unless you break them by accident.

Have fun choosing!

 

[bluefabian]

I recently bought an Xstream Duration for the reason of having a gear that will complement and suit my future diving needs. I mostly dive in warm tropical waters but plan to do more colder water vacation dives around the world. Most of my present dives are between the range of 110 - 140 feet, and I did about 4 dives per week. The Xstream complements my already excellent and reliable Aqualung Legend. Just that I want a DIN configuration kit (for travelling purposes, with an A-clamp convertor) and a regulator suited for cold water diving.

The Xstream works well in any depth. Even better as you go deeper and surprisingly at shallow depths as well. That was my first reservation and thought - reading comments and opinions. But you just have to experience it yourself to decide. I don't miss the venturi or inhalation effort switch on my Legend because it practically delivers all the air that you need. The purge button will deliver absolutely high pressure blow, and one needs to change the habit of having the regulator in the mouth as you purge (which I have thankfully never did). Can't really notice any noticeable difference in air delivery at depth or even at low tank pressure. My Legend has almost the same attribute but there is still that tiny yet present effort at depth and at very low tank pressure. I dunno about other people - the air felt somewhat warmer and wetter which is pleasing to me.

No doubt about the purchase.

 

[jwllorens]

I am leaning towards the Poseidons right now but I still have two reservations about them.

My favorite mouthpiece that I have used thus far is the C-Bite style mouthpiece (such as the one that comes standard on the XTX50). I have not been able to find one that would fit the Xstream, and have read that Poseidon mouthpieces need a longer or wider neck or something.

The strong purge also concerns me. I wonder why they don't just incorporate a stop on the purge button to prevent it from being depressed all the way?

Both of these prevent the Xstream from being compatible with a FFM such as the Drager Nova or KM48, which I would like to use in the future.