Mixing and matching 1st and 2nd stages, OK?

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tangfish

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I'm wondering if there are any general ill-effects of mixing and matching makes/brands of 1st and 2nd stages. I put a Scubapro S600 second stage on my Atomic M1 first stage (along with the M1 second stage). I might be imagining things but the S600 seems to breathe very poorly compared to how it used to perform on the scubapro first stage. I've heard that you need to adjust for ambient pressures in the tubes and maybe this is what is causing it.

Either way, the M1 breathes much better than the S600 does, I'm wondering if the reverse would be true if I swapped both second stages onto my MK25.
:huh:
 
One thing that could be bad is if your first stage is made of a softer metal than the hose connection that is going into it, I know that scubapro makes a first stage made of aluminum and if you use brass to screw into it, you will eventually pull the threads out of the first stage. Other than this, I haven't heard of anything.
Good luck,
Nick
 
Changing second stages is not a matter of simply loosening bolts and screwing them in elsewhere. You need to first make sure that the second stage is compatible with the new first stage (which in your case it is) and then you need to tune the second stage to work properly with the new first stage.
I would recommend consulting a professional who is familiar with both regulator designs. Without soundig like a jerk, lets remember, we are dealing with life support here. Not only that, you are making modifications to your alternate. The place where you go when something goes wrong.
There is no need to worry about dissimilar metals in this case.
 
Maybe mixing different brand regs is not such a good idea. There are no official tests done with different brand regs and therefore no CE approval. To combine them is actually easy as most regs got the same threads, but this is where the similarities end. There are different intermediate pressures in the first stages of all brands and this alone can make it impossible for you to adjust and fine tune second stages that you screw into the first stage and I don't even want to start with the different flowrates. Also, please ask yourself if you can trust your regs to work in any condition. What can go wrong will go wrong, it is just a matter of time. If you don't get a problem underwater then you will run into a big one the first time when you need to get them serviced. Apparently it is against HSE rules and regulations to sell or service regulators that are assembled with different brand parts and the service centre can be prosecuted.
Let me tell you another story that just happened to me 2 weeks ago in Dahab (Egypt). I went there with a couple of friends to do some trimix diving at the Blue Hole.
When we prepared our equipment a friend of mine assembled Apeks first stages (sorry don't remember which ones) and Scubapro (S600/R390) second stages. His instructor pointed out the problem that could arise from such a combination and told us the HSE story. The instructor should know as he owns one of Londons largest diving schools. But stubborn as my friend is he wouldn't change his reg configuration. End of story? ... he nearly killed himself! At his last dive into the Blue Hole he suddenly got a severe freeflow on his primary reg (S600) at 100m and couldn't shut it down himself. Thank god his instructor reacted quickly and managed to control the situation.
OK, this example is a little bit extreme and some of you might argue now that the average diver will never go to these depths, but do you know which problem can arise from coupling different brand regs and when and where you will run into difficulties.
Please ask yourselves if you want to risk your life (and maybe the one of your buddy!) over such an unneccesary experiment.

Cheers, Andy (AquaPix)
 
AquaPix:
Maybe mixing different brand regs is not such a good idea. There are no official tests done with different brand regs and therefore no CE approval. To combine them is actually easy as most regs got the same threads, but this is where the similarities end. There are different intermediate pressures in the first stages of all brands and this alone can make it impossible for you to adjust and fine tune second stages that you screw into the first stage and I don't even want to start with the different flowrates. Also, please ask yourself if you can trust your regs to work in any condition. What can go wrong will go wrong, it is just a matter of time. If you don't get a problem underwater then you will run into a big one the first time when you need to get them serviced. Apparently it is against HSE rules and regulations to sell or service regulators that are assembled with different brand parts and the service centre can be prosecuted.
Let me tell you another story that just happened to me 2 weeks ago in Dahab (Egypt). I went there with a couple of friends to do some trimix diving at the Blue Hole.
When we prepared our equipment a friend of mine assembled Apeks first stages (sorry don't remember which ones) and Scubapro (S600/R390) second stages. His instructor pointed out the problem that could arise from such a combination and told us the HSE story. The instructor should know as he owns one of Londons largest diving schools. But stubborn as my friend is he wouldn't change his reg configuration. End of story? ... he nearly killed himself! At his last dive into the Blue Hole he suddenly got a severe freeflow on his primary reg (S600) at 100m and couldn't shut it down himself. Thank god his instructor reacted quickly and managed to control the situation.
OK, this example is a little bit extreme and some of you might argue now that the average diver will never go to these depths, but do you know which problem can arise from coupling different brand regs and when and where you will run into difficulties.
Please ask yourselves if you want to risk your life (and maybe the one of your buddy!) over such an unneccesary experiment.

Cheers, Andy (AquaPix)


There are a few regulators (Such as Poseidon and some sherwood regulators) which operate with a higher interim pressure than normal, but to my knowledge, Scubapro, Mares and the other big regulator manufacturers operate with an interim pressure of 10.5 bar. Apex has a peculiar one where the interim pressure increases relative to the water depth - Not sure how that would affect it, so I would check that with a service technician before I combine Apex with anything else. I expect the result would be that the relative pressure on the second stage would remain 9-10 bar, regardless of depth (So for all intents and purposes, just a balanced regulator) but I'm not entirely sure, so I'll leave this one to people knowing the apex's better than me.

Also remember that since Aqualung bought Apex, Aqualung regulators are pretty much the same as the Apex's.
For the other manufacturers, you can interchange the second stages (as long as the threads match). Best way to make sure though is to buy an Interim Pressure Gauge (Which plugs in to your low pressure hose), and check that both first stages have a similar interim pressure. (as in within .5 of a bar.)

If the interim pressure is higher, you should reconsider, or if you choose to go ahead, detune the second stage to avoid freeflowing. If it is too low, it just means you'll have a heavy breathe. (Which, on deep dives can be very dangerous, so do be careful)

Aquapix: If your friend couldn't do his own shutdowns, then IMHO he had no business doing a deco dive to 100 meters in the first place. All the tech training agencies I've looked at has emphasised shutdowns heavily during the deco procedure training. Not being able to do the shutdowns don't sound like mastery to me.

E:)
 
funkyspelunker:
I'm wondering if there are any general ill-effects of mixing and matching makes/brands of 1st and 2nd stages. I put a Scubapro S600 second stage on my Atomic M1 first stage (along with the M1 second stage). I might be imagining things but the S600 seems to breathe very poorly compared to how it used to perform on the scubapro first stage. I've heard that you need to adjust for ambient pressures in the tubes and maybe this is what is causing it.

Either way, the M1 breathes much better than the S600 does, I'm wondering if the reverse would be true if I swapped both second stages onto my MK25.
:huh:


In your case, the M1 first stage and the Scubapro 1st stages are virtually identical, so you are simply experiencing the fact that atomic is a superior reg to scubapro... They beat them in all the breathing simulation tests I've seen... and now instead of simulated - you're feeling it.

Both the first stages put out the same IP and both have stupid high flow rates that far surpass what the second stage can deliver - so again - you are just feeling the better atomic reg.
 
If your friend couldn't do his own shutdowns, then IMHO he had no business doing a deco dive to 100 meters in the first place. All the tech training agencies I've looked at has emphasised shutdowns heavily during the deco procedure training. Not being able to do the shutdowns don't sound like mastery to me.

Hi E,

and thanks for your reply. I absolutely agree that my friend shouldn't have done the 100m training dive as he obviously didn't master the shutdowns. But I think you have missed my point about the regulater mismatch. It is illegal to sell or service them by english law and therefore one should be very careful recommending to combine different brand regs, even if technically it would be possible to do so. Just imagine you would make a recommendation and someone dies using your "no problem" configuration. I would find it very difficult to live with that burden, plus think about the lawsuits ...

I really don't want to be a wiseass, all I am concerned is the safety of my fellow divers.

Cheers, Andy
 
AquaPix:
If your friend couldn't do his own shutdowns, then IMHO he had no business doing a deco dive to 100 meters in the first place. All the tech training agencies I've looked at has emphasised shutdowns heavily during the deco procedure training. Not being able to do the shutdowns don't sound like mastery to me.

Hi E,

and thanks for your reply. I absolutely agree that my friend shouldn't have done the 100m training dive as he obviously didn't master the shutdowns. But I think you have missed my point about the regulater mismatch. It is illegal to sell or service them by english law and therefore one should be very careful recommending to combine different brand regs, even if technically it would be possible to do so. Just imagine you would make a recommendation and someone dies using your "no problem" configuration. I would find it very difficult to live with that burden, plus think about the lawsuits ...

I really don't want to be a wiseass, all I am concerned is the safety of my fellow divers.

Cheers, Andy

Sure, I agree it might not be the best idea in the world - Particularly as I can't really see much point in doing so - As far as I understand, this chap has a first and second stage for both his regs.

On the other hand, since a lot of the reg brands are effectively the same regs but with different badges on them (Apex/Aqualung - Sherwood (Some types) and Poseidon), I still think it's possible, and I don't think you are necessarily doomed to a painful death if you do.

From a liability perspective, it would be a nightmare, but if people are playing with their config anyway, it's better that they understand what they ought to be looking for to identify incompatibilities.
 
Hi E,

you are absolutely right in all your points. I am personally just very careful with these recommendations for the known reasons.

Cheers
 
My two favorite subjects! Atomic and Scubapro regs... As far as I am concerned everythng else could go bye-bye and I would never notice!
It does not mater how you mix and match them. The IP of both Atomic and Scuba Pro regs is 135-145 PSI and the 2nd's would be set up for that IP. You have a great set up and there should be no problem, just how the breathe.
 

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