Medical Privacy Concern

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I don't think lying on a med form to a dive shop has ever killed anyone.

Think again... and read back.

Been there

Done that

Got the T-shirt.

I don't even want to convince you about this. It doesn't matter at all to me what you or nude-boy want to think....

I just hope that people who read this thread and are considering listening to your piss poor advice think twice...

R..
 
The question was, do you think it is common for people to do so?

Please tell me, if a person has, say, diabetes, and their doctor clears them to dive, and they go diving with you without telling you that they have diabetes, what the "additional risk" to you is? Same question, but they're taking a prescription medication for, oh, I dunno, allergy to pollen? Or High cholesterol? Or inability to get it up? Or whatever? Thanks.


Insulin dependent diabetics run a risk of hypoglycemic shock, that is their blood sugar gets so low due to a combination of meds used to control high blood sugar (by lowering it) and exercise (which lowers it). This manifests as nonresponsiveness, lethargy, inability to think clearly, incoherent responses to questions, unconsciousness and death. All rescues are risky. Rescue risks increase correspondingly with depth. I have seen blood sugar drops measured before and after dives of 100 points. I submit that there is a risk of recovering a divers sinking past 130 ft because of hypo or hyperglycemic shock (both have the same effect) I do not know if you are a DM or above, but unlike an average citizen, who legally can watch a person drown 2 ft away and not do a thing, as long as they had nothing to do with the cause, I have a legal duty to act. I have no choice but to try to save you if you are in distress in the water, and long as I run no unreasonable risk of death or injury. Legally, I have no choice. I have to try. The best way to manage an emergency is to prevent it before it happens. As a leader, I have a duty to keep a closer eye on you, legally, and most important ethically, to note any behavior changes which might indicate a problem. In an emergency, seconds count. I would rather abort a dive and get you to safety before you run the risk of drowning, not after you pass out at 100 ft. it's an awareness issue.

I know of no form which asks specifically for which prescription medications you are taking, a mitigation toward privacy concerns. It is for a doctor to decide whether a medication can affect diving.

As for things like high cholesterol, this puts you at a higher risk of stroke, and cardiac arrest. Heart attacks are a leading cause of diving fatalities, causing drowning.

Minor things like allergy medications can bounce back, causing sinus congestion at depth, increasing risk of reverse block. Reverse block is painful, but not life threatening, however, anyone who has had rescue training knows(or should know) that it is not one thing that causes emergencies and diver panic, but multiple small stressors which cause panic at depth. It's called task loading and causes a panic cycle.
I have to deal with panic cycles, and you can chop logic any way you like, dealing with a panicking diver is dangerous, and the risk increases with depth. Knowing exactly what conditions exist is of limited use, knowing there is an increased risk is vital.Because the best way to deal with a panic cycle is to kill it before it gets big enough to eat you. So how does everyone know what constitutes an increased risk and what does not? Well, there is a list. It's called a dive clearance medical form.

I am not a physician, or an attorney. I can't assess fitness, in fact, I can't even say "take a decongestant" without exposing myself to legal liability for dispensing medical advice. What I can do is recognize a problem in the water, and take extra care with a diver with a potential problem. Not having that information places me at greater risk because that diver is at greater risk. If i don't know there is a risk, I may not be able to act in a timely manner, exposing myself to greater physical risk and to charges of negligence. I did not create the tort laws, but I need to live with them.

The rest of the world, unfortunately, does NOT have your attitude towards personal responsibilty. I suggest you read some of DAN's excellent publications of potential medical problems and the effects of hyperbarics on the human body and medications. They would answer your questions far more thoroughly than I can in this forum. All the conditions listed on the form put a diver at greater risk. rescuing a distressed diver is a dangerous operation physically, and unless you get the complicated response procedure accomplished perfectly, under great physical exertion, under greater psychological distress, stared at by gawkers, you open yourself up to massive litigation. i don't like it, but there it is.

I volunteered for it, with informed consent. I ask the same of those I have a legal responsibility for, and as I stated before, the moral and ethical duty to.

I speak as someone who in the past has acted to save other's lives, and some I've won, and sometimes the person died despite my best efforts. I have never lost a diver. Losing anyone is terribly traumatic, you always wonder what you could have done better, faster, and as noted by another poster, many pros quit after a fatal (or even not fatal) incident, even if they bear no responsibility.

Does this answer your question adequately? I could expand on this, but this has been thoroughly covered in the industry. Until the law changes, lying places others at risk.

Many people lie on a medical form. Doing so relases a professional fron most legal liability (no grounds to sue for negligence, provided the pro does not gain the knowledge some other way before the incident) it does nothing to mitigate the increased physical risk to the diver or the pro. Ignorance does make things not exist.



-Nomad
 
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*SNIP*but unlike an average citizen, who legally can watch a person drown 2 ft away and not do a thing, as long as they had nothing to do with the cause, I have a legal duty to act. I have no choice but to try to save you if you are in distress in the water, and long as I run no unreasonable risk of death or injury. Legally, I have no choice. I have to try. *SNIP* Until the law changes, lying places others at risk.

-Nomad

Please cite the relevant state or federal code which creates an affirmative duty to act
 
I think people are getting too bogged down with the actions a DM/DiveCon/instructor mgiht take.

In terms of the safety of the diver, the primary purpose of the form has been served before class begins. In an earlier post, someone doubted that a woman who lied about being pregnant would not have been saved by the instructor knowing that. The threat, first of all, is to the fetus, not the mother, but that fetus would have been saved not because of the actions of the instructor in the class but from the fact that the mother would not have been in the class in the first place.

The form clearly marks out areas of risk for new divers who might not be aware of them. If you want to be a diver, you may have to sign yes for something you did not realize was a problem. If your doctor refuses to sign off to let you dive, then your life may have been saved before you even met a scuba professional. If you lie on the form and do not see your doctor to be refused permission, then you are putting yourself at risk. You may die because you lied on the form that would have kept you away from a life-treatening situation.

The form also protects the instructor from a lawsuit beause it clearly shows that the diver was fully informed of the medical hazards associated with diving and gave informed consent to participate. In activities other than scuba, lawsuits have been successful because the litigant has proven to the satisfaction of a jury that he/she was not sufficiently informed before giving consent to participate in a hazardous activity.
 
Please cite the relevant state or federal code which creates an affirmative duty to act

This has been discussed frequently on SB. In fact, I believe that people come away from these discussions with an even greater sense of a legal responsibility than there really is, not less of one. In fact, some people come away from the threads with the overreaction that if they are a dive professional who is in the vicinity of a dive accident and not acting professionally that they may be held liable. (I am pretty sure that is not the case.)

On the otehr hand, a dive professional who accepts payment for services clearly has an established duty to care which extends to a requirement to provide assistance within the established standards of a dive rescue.

One such thread even found a court ruling that suggested that a nonprofessional acting as a buddy during a dive may have such a duty.
 
You don't still think we're talking about theoreticals here do you?

People die because of lying on their medical forms...(ie. following your advice). and trying to rescue them and/or being forced to tell their loved ones what happened are not theoretical arguments on a Internet forum.... to say nothing of the persons who died by listening to this crap.

Try to understand that.

R..
I'm surprised at you. Normally your posts seem well reasoned to me, but on this one, you just seem to be completely out there.

Once again....people do not die because they lie on the form. If you can show me any case where lying on the PADI "health form" has been determined to be the direct and proximate cause of someone's death, please do.

In the meantime - given your propensity to distort arguments and failure to provide rational and logical responses to the direct questions already asked on this issue, I don't see any point in continuing to help you explore the issue. Ah well.
 
If you are going to quote me at least put in the same context it was written in. It is the actions of the individuals and there decisions to do something that they have been warned about that gets people killed not the information on a piece of paper.

I suppose driving down the road at a 100 mph is the auto makers fault or the high school driving teacher fault because you choose to do something that you have been informed could kill you and others. Same thing, when I took my driving test I said I understood that I am only suppose to drive the posted speed limit.

Before I got to dive in dive class I learned manual or study book that diving with certain conditions could injure me and or others and if I have one of those conditions I need to see a DR

The form is about liability and who gets sued period.
The rest is about take responsibility for your actions and the well being of other by NOT DIVING if you knowingly have a condition that your DR told you not to dive with.

I can not believe there is such a mixed emotion here on privacy. I don't think anyone wants people to just go out and die while diving. It is bad for the sport and the loved ones left behind. Besides I find that most people would rather help someone than hurt them. I just hate a bunch of lawyers and insurance companies telling me that I have to reveal anything to perfect strangers about my medical history and again at the point of signing up for scuba classes they are strangers and it is just none of there business.
 
Please cite the relevant state or federal code which creates an affirmative duty to act

Put shortly, in California, as someone who is paid to provide a higher risk experience, i have a greater duty to act. If I don't, I'm contributory.

Duty: There are two general types of duty imposed by law. First, everyone has a duty to use ordinary care in conducting activities from which harm might reasonably be anticipated. California Civ. Code ާ1714(a), which provides that everyone is responsible, not only for the result of his or her willful acts, but also for an injury occasioned to another by his or her want of ordinary care or skill in the management of his or her property or person, except so far as the other person has, willfully or by want of ordinary care, brought the injury upon himself or herself. Liability for negligent conduct is, therefore, the rule, to which no exception is made unless clearly supported by public policy considerations.
In addition to the general duty to use ordinary care, a person may have a duty to act affirmatively to warn or protect others or to control the conduct of others, if a special relationship exists between the actor and either the person to be controlled or the person who needs protection.
To determine in a given case whether the defendant owes a duty of care to the plaintiff, the court must consider several factors, including the foreseeability of harm to the injured party, the degree of certainty that the injured party suffered injury, the closeness of the connection between the defendantÃÔ conduct and the injury suffered, the moral blame attached to the defendant, the policy of preventing future harm, the extent of the burden to the defendant and the consequences to the community of imposing a duty on the defendant to exercise care with its resulting liability for breach, and the availability, cost, and custom of obtaining insurance for the risk involved.
The most important of these considerations in establishing duty is foreseeability. As a general principle, a defendant owes a duty of care to all persons who are foreseeably endangered by his or her conduct, with respect to all risks which make that conduct unreasonably dangerous.
Breach Of Duty: After establishing the existence of a duty of care owed by the defendant, a plaintiff, to support a claim of negligence, must show that the defendant breached that duty. The breach of the general duty to act reasonably consists of conduct falling below the standard of ordinary care or skill in the management of person or property. [Civ. Code ާ1714(a)]
Ordinary care is that degree of care which people of ordinarily prudent behavior can be reasonably expected to exercise under the circumstances of a given case. In other words, the care required must be in proportion to the danger to be avoided and the consequences that might reasonably be anticipated.
The duty to act reasonably varies with changing circumstances. In general, the standard of care is measured objectively.
Causation: For an act or omission to be the legal cause of an injury, it first must be the cause in fact of the injury. Finding cause in fact, or actual cause, requires a common sense determination as to whether the defendantÃÔ conduct brought about or contributed in some way to the plaintiffÃÔ injury. The "but for" rule of causation, which defines actual cause, implies that the defendantÃÔ conduct is the cause of an event if "but for" the defendantÃÔ conduct, the event would not have occurred Stated another way, if the plaintiff would have sustained the injury anyway, regardless of whether the defendant was negligent, then the defendantÃÔ negligence was not an actual cause of the plaintiffÃÔ injury.
The "but for" rule of causation is adequate for most situations, but it fails where liability would be avoided because a defendantÃÔ act or omission concurred with another cause and either cause alone would have been sufficient to bring about the injurious event. However, in those situations involving concurrent causes, one cannot escape responsibility for his or her negligence on the ground that identical harm would have occurred without it. The proper rule for those situations is that the defendantÃÔ conduct is a cause of the event because it is a material element and a "substantial factor" in bringing it about.
The doctrine of "proximate cause" provides a limitation on liability. Even where a defendantÃÔ conduct is an actual cause of a plaintiffÃÔ injury, the defendant may be held not liable because of the manner in which the injury occurred. The most common circumstance in which a defendant may escape liability because of a lack of proximate causation is when, after the defendantÃÔ act, an independent intervening act that is not reasonably foreseeable occurs. In that event, even though the defendantÃÔ act started the chain of causation toward the plaintiffÃÔ injury, the intervening act may be considered a superseding cause of the injury. Thus, where, because of an unforeseeable intervening act, a court concludes that it would be unjust to hold the defendant legally responsible, the court relieves the defendant of liability by holding that there is no "proximate cause" between the defendantÃÔ act or omission and the plaintiffÃÔ injury.
Defense - Comparative Negligence: Contributory negligence is conduct on the part of the plaintiff which falls below the standard to which he or she should conform for his or her own protection, and which is a legally contributing cause concurring with the negligence of the defendant in bringing about the plaintiffÃÔ harm.
Before 1975, the plaintiffÃÔ contributory negligence was a complete bar to recovery against a defendant whose negligent conduct would have otherwise made him or her liable to the plaintiff for the harm the plaintiff sustained. However, the California Supreme Court has replaced this all-or-nothing rule of contributory negligence with a rule that assesses liability in proportion to fault. In all actions for negligence resulting in injury to person or property, the contributory negligence of the person injured no longer bars recovery, but the damages awarded must be diminished in proportion to the amount of negligence attributable to the person recovering.
 
This has been discussed frequently on SB. In fact, I believe that people come away from these discussions with an even greater sense of a legal responsibility than there really is, not less of one. In fact, some people come away from the threads with the overreaction that if they are a dive professional who is in the vicinity of a dive accident and not acting professionally that they may be held liable. (I am pretty sure that is not the case.)

On the otehr hand, a dive professional who accepts payment for services clearly has an established duty to care which extends to a requirement to provide assistance within the established standards of a dive rescue.

One such thread even found a court ruling that suggested that a nonprofessional acting as a buddy during a dive may have such a duty.

You have asserted an affirmative duty to act; please substantiate it. The only establishment of such an affirmative duty would be via local state or federal code. Scubaboard discussions notwithstanding civil liability and criminal liability are established in disparate fashions. Your statements assert: "I have a legal duty to act. I have no choice but to try to save you if you are in distress in the water, and long as I run no unreasonable risk of death or injury. Legally, I have no choice. I have to try."

You are asserting a legal duty, which is created by statute. What statute do you operate under?
 
Put shortly, in California, as someone who is paid to provide a higher risk experience, i have a greater duty to act. *SNIP*.

Your cite refers to duty of care, not duty to act; excepting special relationships, which are more of a conservator related relationship than a dive professional relationship.

This cite refers to civil liability.

There is no law which creates an affirmative duty to act for dive instructors or dive masters or anyone else in the dive industry.

Affirmative duty to act statutes are created for municipal, local, state and federal employees of a certain class. Police, fire, EMS, and a few others. The criminal aspect of the codes are for specific misuses of authority.

Folks tend to misunderstand the difference between a duty of care and a duty to act.

Although liability may be incurred by someone who is in a special relationship with a student of any stripe, civil liability is far less likely to be incurred by someone who has more scuba training than anyone else at the scene of a diving accident.
 
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